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    Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:00 pm

    Does this subject scare you? I have stated it before, and I will keep stating it, that theology is central to disclosure. Just don't believe everything the preachers and televangelists tell you! Study the Bible and theology books on your own - in combination with all of the fringe material. Take a look at this link for some material which I do not necessarily endorse, but which is sort of half-way between Christianity as Usual and what we discuss. http://www.youtube.com/user/nowheretorun1984 Try reading the Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John - in the New King James Version of the Holy Bible - over and over and over again. Did Lucifer inspire or write most of the Bible? Are both Lucifer and the Bible a mixture of good and evil? If you believe that the Bible is the Word of the Creator God of the Universe - and that Preachers and Televangelists tell the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth - may I suggest that you are Massively Deluded and Living in Denial? On the other hand - If you are an Atheist who knows nothing of theology - and will not even consider the subject - and do not believe in any type of Intelligent Design - may I suggest that you are Massively Deluded and Living in Denial? I often think that the only people who really identify with what I'm talking about are Jesuits and Alphabet Agents - and those (human and otherwise) who live in Underground Bases Throughout the Solar System.

    I keep thinking of a goddess killing a god - stealing this god's technology - and ruling Earth - from the Garden of Eden to the present. There is an aspect of the goddess concept which I like - and there is an aspect which I despise and oppose. There is an aspect of Anna in 'V' which I really like - and there is an aspect which is hideously reprehensible. My soul and reptilian questions are very relevant to the goddess concept - which includes the mythology and reality of the goddess in ancient Egypt. I am running with the concept of Lucifer = Lilith = Hathor = Isis = Mary and others. In other words - a single key entity who reincarnates endlessly into human/reptile/hermaphroditic bodies - with total reincarnational recall and 100% use of the brain - and complete access to the Vatican library and other repositories of ancient wisdom and technology - which could include the complete contents of the Library of Alexandria (was there a duplicate created before the fire, or were the best contents removed before the fire?) - which might include antigravity craft, zero-point energy, atomic energy, nuclear weapons, tectonic weapons, supercomputers, genetic manipulation and hybridization, etc. What if all of this wisdom and technology was really stolen from us? I'm just going to keep pressing forward with this line of thinking to see where it leads. Obviously, the proof will probably be virtually non-existant, and circumstantial evidence may have to suffice until insiders really start fessing up in the confessional - and the skeletons start falling out onto the floor. Don't hold your breath.

    Usually the Whore of Babylon is equated with the Roman Catholic Church. I think this is incorrect. I think the Whore of Babylon may give orders to the Black Pope. I suspect it - but I can't prove it. I just can't get away from the thought of being in the Sistine Chapel, in the Vatican, with the Black Pope, the Top-Ranking Jesuits, the Whore of Babylon, and a Nine Foot Tall Drac (Head Pimp and Chairman of the Board) - listening to a completely open debate regarding forbidden knowledge. I'm thinking this would send me sobbing uncontrollably into the night. As interested and nice as we are - we are amateurs. I think an alphabet-type told Kerry something to that effect. There is a certain arrogance to this - but there is also a certain truth to it as well. My emotional state, and my thinking ability, are severely compromised. I know I'm not even close to hitting bedrock in my search for truth, solutions, security, and happiness. I am very concerned that the old paradigms and lies are going to be replaced by new paradigms and lies - which continue to bypass the real truths and answers. I'm seeing an ongoing infowar rather than a golden age of peace and happiness. I so hope that I'm wrong. Kali was/is the black Indian goddess who kills lots and lots of people. Sort of reminds me of Hathor on a bad day. I'm thinking that all of the different gods and goddesses may represent the various aspects of a single god or goddess - and, as you know, I am leaning toward the unified goddess hypothesis. But I can't prove it. If I could - I'd probably be history. I have heard that Lucifer is dead - but could this be an exaggeration? Would Lucifer prefer that people think that he or she is dead? I'm thinking that Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer are alive and well - and living in this solar system - and that they might lead the three primary competing factions in this neck of the woods. I'm not subscribing to a lot of the 'dozens of alien races from distant stars, inhabiting numerous dimensions and densities new age mumbo jumbo. I'm going to attempt to exhaust theories which place nearly everything 'alien' within this solar system - and which involve humans, reptiles (as in dinosaurs or sauroids), and human/reptile hybrids - all with the same type of soul (which can reincarnate into any of these varieties). I'm also toying with the idea that interdimensional reptilians and human souls are one and the same thing - and that what I just said in the last couple of sentences constitutes 99% of the so called 'alien presence'. (at least for the last 10,000 years, or so) I think that some very, very evil laboratories have existed in this solar system for thousands of years - and have produced many varieties of Frankenstein's Monster. The truth may be sharper than Occam's Razor - and it may cut both ways.

    I think that the Creator God of the Universe set things up in a most excellent way - and then things got screwed-up in a most horrible manner. I'm not sure who was/is responsible - but justice needs to be served - and law and order needs to be restored in this solar system. I believe that a Solar System Exorcism and a Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom Solar System would remedy most of the most pressing ills we face. But what the hell do I know. I don't go out of the body. I don't do regression hypnosis. I don't have spirit guides. I don't even pray anymore. I don't trust the gods and goddesses. They let me down. I'm currently reading through the Four Gospels in the New King James Version of the Holy Bible (I recommend doing this regularly) - but I do not consider this to be the Word of the Creator God of the Universe. Could this be some of Lucifer's best work? Don't laugh at me, or hate me. Jesus said that he had many things to tell us - but that we couldn't bear them. Paul tried to do good, but did evil instead - and considered himself to be a wretched man. Was Paul really Josephus? Were they all the same individual? Were they front-men (or creations) of Mary? Was the Historical Jesus created by the Woman in Scarlet to be a Red Herring? Are the Teachings of Jesus mostly true and beneficial? Was Mary a continuation of a Whore of Babylon Apostolic Succession? If we do not consider all of the possibilities - even the far-fetched and seemingly ridiculous ones - are we really doing our job? If you sing a song or throw a football - the crowds cheer, and you get paid tens of millions of dollars. If you search for truth, and try to save the world - you get nothing but a swift kick where it counts. What's wrong with this picture? Is this world really worth saving? Perhaps the Georgia Guidestones have a point. How many people will read this? Ten maybe? How many demonic entities have been assigned the task of spying on me and reigning me in? Ten maybe? I just swore at them, and flipped them off! These b@stards live with me without paying rent!! There's a shapeshifting Jesuit living in my attic! The heart of darkness could've at least sent a sexy cyborg from another dimension to keep track of me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-z54EP0EhM
    Hello Lucifer! Smile! sunny


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:05 am

    Here is something I posted on AV1 which I think is relevant to this thread. I am very discouraged at this point. I've only been here a week, and I'm really ready to quit permanently. I've really just been talking to myself and wasting my time for much too long. People won't seriously deal with this subject until the New World Order really kicks in with a vengeance - but then they will probably just play the blame game without fixing anything. Talking to people in a calm and rational manner, with the best of intentions, is a lost cause. Edwin Bernays and Sigmund Freud were right. (Even though I dislike both of them) Seeking Fame, Fortune, Power, and Pleasure really makes the world go 'round - which is why 'It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World'. If we save the world - the next generation probably won't appreciate it - and they'll just get into more messes. The corrupt will continue to rule the stupid. The human race will continue to live by the Golden Rule (He or She Who Has the Gold - RULES!). Perhaps I should focus upon the RESPONSIBLE PURSUIT OF FAME, FORTUNE, POWER, AND PLEASURE - WHERE RESPONSIBILITY IS REWARDED AND IRRESPONSIBILITY IS PUNISHED. I am more disgusted with the human race than I can even begin to describe. I'm not sure whether I am more disgusted by the corrupt - or by the stupid. I'm almost ready to go back to sleep, go back to church, watch the mainstream media, believe every word, get chipped, get vaccinated, and drink my kool-aid like a good zombie.

    Here is an internet encounter which I found to be very interesting. It was me interacting with someone who claimed to be a hybrid, and who had a website devoted to 'Lucifer and Fallen Angels'. I saw a picture of them, and it was a pretty young woman. Shortly after this exchange occurred, their YouTube account was closed, and their website was shut down. I found this very strange and troubling. Were they the real deal? Did she reveal too much? I actually just located a short free online book by Veronica http://www.archive.org/details/BorealisNight-SexAndPassionTransmutingTheHeart She evidently has a Twitter account as well (with some seemingly high-profile followers) - but I don't do Twitter. This is just one more source of alternative information. I'm trying to develop 'Thought Triage' - to properly sort out a wide variety of conflicting information. Just remember - just because something is respectable doesn't make it right!

    Veronica: Mad humans always existed, just don’t blame their actions (if existed) to the Reptilians. Is too easy to say people are been led by other species evils than admit that there are humans nuts by themselves. Reptilians are good, they only approach a human when they fall in love, and to do good to the beloved person. Satan is a word that means "attorney" in the original language. It is not an individual, the word can apply to many alien lawyer that have nothing to do with humans.

    Orthodoxymoron: Is the Old Testament God really Satan...a Reptilian. Could the "attorney" definition have something to do with the legalism seen in the Old Testament? We humans are pretty disgusting in our own right...but I suspect that evil spirits and evil aliens make things a lot worse. Who is responsible for abductions, mutilations, etc? And what about the frightful appearance of alleged Reptilians. I'm not anti-alien...just anti-evil.

    Veronica: Thanks for commenting on my post, and for the opportunity of bringing up this subject. The Old Testament Satan came from a species called Man of Tri. He was a good guy, having a beautiful personal trajectory of defending social rights on his planet, extremely intelligent, only bright and right lawyers are chosen to be a Satan. At the time he arrived on Earth, unfortunately, he had become insane, and he did a lot of harm, but it was because he was ill. His species lives 8.000 to 10.000 years of Earth, and he stayed much of this time here, doing harm. As there was few personnel from other species working here, few angels and lots of work to do in those days, nobody caught him. I am not aware if Eden destituted him while he was alive, but he did not act as a Satan here, though he had the Satan seal because he was a nominated Satan ( by Eden High Council). He acted as an insane man, because he was maddened by an illness. See, there is Good and Bad, and there is Evil. Good and Bad are complementary in a context. Evil is out of place. This is because the source of Evil is an illness. It is a virus. We call it virus of Tri because was first detected there. This virus attacks a small percentage of most populations. All species are united to find the cure, all species have problems with maddened guys, and, as humans, in all species most individuals are good guys living by common sense and good social rules.

    Orthodoxymoron: Your website is very interesting. I'm wondering if you have heard of, seen or read a book titled 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen G. White? If so, what is your opinion? What is your opinion regarding the Teachings of Jesus? What is your opinion regarding the U.S. Constitution? What can you tell me about the New World Order? Is it really the Old Alien Order? Who was ultimately responsible for 9/11? Satan as a mentally-ill attorney is a fascinating possibility...

    Veronica: I will bring the answers here later, just stopped quickly now to thank you. The FAQ is stuck for lack of questions and you really do good ones.
    I don’t speak alone, I am supported by Lucifer embassy and by Eden. I got a long message from a Messenger Angel about these, it will take a while to translate, but I will let you know. Basically, about the book of Ellen White as well as the Teaching of Jesus, the message focus on the fact that we are the ones making the history now, there is no need to focus on history to know anything important. Each happening of history is fit for the time it happened. Constitution, summary: the real law is the law of Nature, not clearly understood yet, and the value of the C. relies on its closeness to the natural laws, not imposing limits to it. The C. is to assure freedom, but the freedom only exists when there is no need of law, be to limit, be to let free, other than the nature. As an overview, the U.S. Constitution is advanced, but not finished. Nature allow development and technology, as it works for the Aliens. What changes is the concept about life. New World Order never existed. If humans made their organizations, they were never powerful to threaten the entire world. Never existed an Alien Order, they are ordinary civilizations, with teachers and accountants and social philosophies, living well and satisfied, solving their problems as everyone else. I know it is hard to believe after all this negative marketing, but they are just here doing routine. About 9/11 the answer of the Angels is: All that participated of 9/11 are already dead.

    I will put the answers here if you don’t mind, not to overload the comments on the video. You are welcome. The old testament is genuine, it was transmitted by Eden, and the prophets translated the best they could, but the angel’s language is not a piece of cake, and there are many misinterpretations, specially after translated to other languages and analyzed. People have the right to know how things are. I am a fallen angel, you probably heard that we born in human form. We have being trying to tell these things for many millennia, but the kings always kill us and burn our books. But this time there is Internet. I am telling this things on You Tube because I am still not sure if the powers of human will not try to burn the books again, if we start to speak to many people at once. Though the world is more civilized now. When you feel comfortable you can visit my blog, there is many more there about the Creation. There is also a book for download, it is a poem done by me with the angel Ariel, that is my brother. It was done to heal the heart, when people sometimes feel tired of the harshness of life. All material there is free and Creative Commons, we don’t want anything from anyone. We speak because it takes us closer of home. Have a great week.

    About spirits: The spirits disturb, really. The fact is that spirits must remain sleeping, and when they are awake they do disturbance. What is important to understand is that never had, and there is not yet, personal enough to suffice the demand of work in Earth. The grays are the responsible to collect the lost spirits, this is part of their job and they are paid to do it and do well, but they are few with few equipment compared to the quantity of ghosts. If someone feel that is being disturbed, he must ask to the gray of his area to chase that specific ghost and the problem will be solved. They usually focus to sane the problems where more humans are being affected. To call the gray just make the request near one of their communication devices. These communicators are discretely placed where the community gathers to discuss the problems, such as churches or community centers, and by what they hear on these places they know where to act to solve the problems affecting more people at once. If someone speak to them directly pointing the problems, they can act more effectively.

    Mutilations: Aliens never mutilate. Not even the criminals. Simply because third dimensional material has no use for anyone but to those who live in it. Most aliens can jump from 3rd to 4th dimension, but their feeding and living is done in the 4th. The 3rd is just for work, tourism or study. For any alien species the bodies of the 3rd D are troublesome to deal with directly, and is pointless. The cattle mutilations are done by rats, birds and small animals. There is plenty of analysis of these supposedly mutilated by abduction corpses, and most of them point to very understandable causes, though there might be something bizarre on nature that we cannot understand. If you wish to research deeper, there is a complete article done by a Brazilian magazine called UFO with legists doctors examining many of these cattle. All of them concluded the mutilations were done by rats, that choose the soft parts to eat first – eyes, nose, mouth, ears, reproductive parts, and from these to inside. The opening made by the small creatures who live from corpses are generally perfect and round, and they eat first from inside, it is easy to see at an apple eaten by worms. From outside it can looks good, and the small hole is perfectly round.

    Real abductions: The Grays are the “nanny” of human species, as the human species of Gaia is young and still entitled do receive special care. Is the grays duty to assure that all human on the group under their care gets food, shelter and sanitary conditions ( not richness, it is only about the health). So, they ionize the air to kill bacteria, influence for resources to reach hospitals, researchers and sanitary organizations. The abductions occur when a special human individual gets ill, the “special” relies on fact that the person is a hub for the distribution of resources to many others humans. If that person gets ill many will be without resources and will be consequently ill too, so the grays operate this hub person so he can keep up as a resources distributor for that area. It is expensive for the grays, done rarely. But as humans start to communicate directly with the grays they might even buy this operations perhaps, paying by sending resources to other humans in need from that gray group. They do these exchanges with some sensitive’s, sometimes.

    Reptilian appearances: The Reptilians are moved by the heart. They fall in love with humans more frequently than you can imagine, then they try to approach the person and everyone gets scared. They are an old, old species, with all existential problems solved, so they live in search of love and adventure. They are scary, of rude gestures, and cannot communicate well with humans, so the misunderstandings and confusions they cause are huge, but there is always an impulsive Reptilian in love behind, usually he does not succeed in his affair, sometimes do. They can fall in love with a person, with a population, with a politic system, with a project being made, by an object or place. It has nothing to do with the “take the world” theories, even because they don’t have to take, the Earth belong to them, and the Angels protect Earth because of them ,as they don’t fit anywhere else, while humanoids can be taken to other places. They are rough in the outside, and most sweet on the inside. Here is their place, the humans just need to learn to understand them, and I am sure will be great for all. They love to have other species living here, when a civilizations ends they long for the next.

    I hope this information has a use for you. It is not something I read or heard, the source are the own Alien representatives. I took the task to clarify the misconceptions on the media on my group, and the intention is only to inform our point of view. I chose to speak person to person, with those who are interested on the issue, as being half-human myself.

    Veronica: Hello friend, You Tube is making me tired. It is like a rally road and I don’t like it, I am a girl. Here are most boys trying to combat, not to fix on the subject. For discussion, only you were interesting. Keep my e-mail if you wish. You are welcome to discuss anytime.

    Orthodoxymoron: Thank-you for your answers and comments. I hope that the internet and You Tube will help people to learn how to communicate more effectively and nicely. I hope things turn out well for everyone...humans, aliens, everyone. I even hope that Satan can learn to be happy without being mean and causing trouble. I don't want anyone to be miserable. Life should be enjoyed. I hope this universe can get past war. We should compete constructively...not destructively. Peace to you.


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:24 am

    Could someone out there please look at this link to my threads - in light of this particular thread on Lucifer - and do a thorough analysis - positive or negative? http://www.themistsofavalon.net/universal-lounge-f8/orthodoxymoron-threads-t876.htm#15423 I included them here because they are really an ongoing research project. I'm trying to change myself - and I am trying to encourage others to think in unconventional yet productive ways. This is a unique approach - which may make it of some value to someone somewhere or somewhen. These threads are an experiment based mostly on videos. I'm not particularly bright or noteworthy...but the videos which I have viewed...especially when viewed as a group...are earth shattering to me. The threads are a healthy mixture of problems and solutions. If you have the time...which is doubtful...please look at all of these threads...and look for commonalities. There is a bit of a theological slant...but certainly not an orthodox or Bible thumping slant. Prepare to be shocked...to cry...to get mad...to be enlightened...and to experience the Eureka Phenomenon!

    I would love to read a twenty page critique of all of these threads - written by a Jesuit or a CIA analyst - complete with a psychological evaluation, etc. I'm very serious. I don't need to be right. I just don't feel as though anyone has seriously considered these threads. They were designed to make people think - and then to arrive at their own conclusions - but I don't think that happened at all. I honestly feel as though Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer, and a couple of alphabet agents and Jesuits are the only ones who looked at this material with a penetrating gaze. Even if I was very close to the mark - I wasn't a threat (I didn't try to be) - because no one seemed to pay much attention to any of it. I had hoped for some very detailed and passionate debating. The 'Amen Ra' thread seemed to generate the most interest (13,200 views and counting) - but I have no idea what the reactions were and are now that AV1 is closed to posting. I feel very empty and lost in all of this. I feel as though I wasted my time and energy - accomplishing nothing. I am making a renewed call for help - into the vast regions of space and cyberspace - to seriously look at this material as a group - and tell me what you think - positive or negative. Where are the scholars? Is there any intelligent life out there that isn't so high and mighty that they can't take a few hours to make a proper evaluation of all of this? Come down out of your ivory tower - I dare you! The water's warm. Come-on in! I'm waiting - but I'm not holding my breath. You important people with your degrees and badges have more important things to do - don't you? Like getting us into even more trouble than we're already in? As far as I can tell - top people with top clearances have gotten us into one helluva lot of trouble - and that these same top people with top clearances are trying to save the world. I'm sorry - but I have completely lost confidence in the top people with top clearances. Is this inaccurate or unfair? Prove me wrong. Don't take what I just said too seriously. I don't know what top people really have to deal with. I'm just trying to get their attention. Is it possible to be a truly free-thinking top person? I'm just trying to spice-up my insignificant and ineffective life - and take my dissatisfaction with life out on top-people with top-clearances.

    Consider this debate between Dr. Walter Martin and Father Mitchell Pacwa (Jesuit) regarding the Roman Catholic view of Mary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tClS31hNmII This has relevance to this thread because of my suggestion that there may be some substance to Lucifer = Lilith = Hathor = Isis = Mary and that the current manifestion of this goddess hypothesis could be similar to that which is represented by Anna in the 'V' series. Once again - I'm not trying to be mean - I'm just trying to understand. The Roman Catholic treatment of Mary may be based upon something more than a fable devised by corrupt men in the Vatican. There may, in fact, be an actual Mary figure, who rules the church - and thus the world. I'm not an insider - and I don't know insiders - so I don't really know. I don't shout this sort of thing from the mountain-tops. I just whisper and mumble on the internet. Please watch the following video from start to finish - and relate it to what I have written in this thread. Warning: this is very disturbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY

    Once again - I just want to wish Satan, Lucifer, Gods, Goddesses, Angels, Demons, Archangels, Illuminati, Megalomaniacs, Reptilians, Greys, Top People with Top Clearances, et al - a terrific day. I really think we can work this thing out - without enslavement, extermination, Star Wars, or Masters of the Universe. Imagine 10,000 very competent humans engaging in Global and Solar System Governance - with advisors which might include all of the above. The absolute power corrupting thing seems to be the big problem.

    cyclops Namaste cyclops

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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:49 pm

    It's midnight. Do you know where your secret government is headquartered? Got cosmic clearance? Someone's knocking on my door. It's a middle-aged man dressed in a three-piece suit. There's a black Suburban with multiple antennas parked in my driveway. My dog is barking furiously. My heart is pounding. I open the door slowly. 'Yes?', I stammer. I am greeted with a terse, 'orthodoxymoron I presume?' I nod affirmatively, as I ask 'Who are you? Why are you here?' The man responds by flashing an official looking badge, and formally stating, 'I am Agent Scranton with the NSA. You need to come with me. Your home and dog will be well cared for, but you must come with me now.' 'What the...' I am interrupted with a firm 'all of your questions will be answered in due time - but you must come with me immediately.' I reluctantly follow - shutting the door behind me - and climbing into the front seat of the still running Suburban.

    'What's going on? Where are we going?', I gasp - as we race down the fast lane of the interstate highway at 20 over the speed-limit. Scranton answers, 'a situation has arisen as a direct result of your internet posting. The Solar System Powers That Be have been instructed by the Galactic Powers That Be - in no uncertain terms - that fundamental changes must be made regarding the policies and activities in this solar system - and that they approve, in general, of your editorial bias, as expressed over the last couple of years on various web sites. They have specified that they want you to interact with the major players throughout the solar system - to bring about these changes - in an evolutionary, but not revolutionary, manner.' 'O My God!' I exclaim - as I sink lower and lower in the bucket-seat. 'What have I gotten myself into? I don't know what to say or do. I just posted random thoughts, and asked stupid questions, to try to figure out what's going on in this crazy world. Why me? How do I know that you're telling me the truth? How do I know that you're not just kidnapping me? How do I know that I'm not going to end up as food for the reptilians?' 'Look orthodoxymoron - this is serious! This world was slated for an extermination event, which has now been placed on hold - pending the success or failure of the reforming efforts.'

    'Exterminatus Interruptus?', I smirk. 'Get with the program wise-guy! Nobody likes you! Your house is a mess. Your life is a mess. You don't have a degree. You're not an insider. You're politically incorrect. You're just a smart-alec with no brains and no track record. The visible and legitmate government hates you. The secret government hates you. The Annunaki hate you. The reptilians and greys hate you. The church hates you. The Jesuits and Alphabet Agents hate you. Satan and Lucifer hate you. Jesus loves you - but everyone else thinks you're an @$$hole! You have no friends. Your co-workers hate you. Your family hates you. You even hate yourself - don't you? Everyone is furious with the strong-arm tactics of the Galactic Powers That Be - but there's not a damn thing they can do about it! The deliberately inflicted oil disasters in the Gulf of Mexico were part of this fiasco. The Solar System Powers That Be have to cooperate with you - whether they like it or not!' Everyone thinks this is a sick joke. You have no support. You will fail. The New World Order, with a world human population of 500,000...is inevitable. You are simply prolonging the agony. You're not good enough for anyone. No Nobel Peace Prize for you. You should've written an Old Testamental Justification for Nuking Iran! Why don't you just give-up? Curse God - and commit suicide! To be, or not to be? That is the question.

    I count to ten, and calmly respond, 'OK...I'm going to need a helluva lot more evidence that what you are saying is really true. I don't trust anyone - not even myself. I think this might be some sort of a MILAB or a CIA mind-control experiment. You claim that 'everyone' hates me - well to be quite honest - I don't like you Scranton!' 'Like me or not - it's showtime pretty-boy - and you'd better watch your backside - because there are a lot of reptilians, greys, and humans who want to see you fail BIG TIME!' I take a deep breath - try to relax - and calmly whisper, 'Agent Scranton - if we can't even get along - how in the hell am I supposed to interact constructively with the PTB?' Scranton gives me a sideways look, and whispers back, 'You need to know your place. This thing is bigger than you can possibly imagine - and if you come on strong like 'Ghost Busters' - the system will eat you alive.' I sheepishly reply, 'I dreamed of a perfected humanity living in a perfected solar system. I had big ideas. But now that I am confronted with this - I'm not so sure any more. I don't know where to begin. By the way - where are we going?'

    'I'm driving you to a small airport about 5 minutes from here. There you will board a Navy helicopter, which will fly you to an undisclosed location. Everything is compartmentalized. No one knows what anyone else is doing, or where they're going. The system likes it that way. You'll see.' I query, 'Who should I watch-out for?' 'Lucifer.' 'Lucifer?' I'm shocked, and exclaim, 'I asked you a serious question - and now you're being a wise-guy with me!' Scranton has a poker-face, and responds, 'I am very, very serious. What they taught you in Sunday school is BS. Lucifer is the most beautiful woman you have ever seen in your life. She runs this solar system - and answers only to Satan.' 'Now wait a minute! This is ridiculous! I speculated about this sort of thing on the internet - but I didn't really believe it. You're jerking my chain - aren't you?' 'No. I am deadly serious - and I mean DEADLY serious. I'm giving you a heads-up, because you will need to be prepared for the worst. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned - and you have scorned the woman most closely connected with hell. Lucifer's IQ is 532. She has the equivalent of 87 PhD's. She is NOT the forgive and forget type. If you cross her - you're dead-meat - and you've crossed her BIG TIME!'

    'When will I have the privilege of meeting her majesty?' 'Soon. But first you must go through 'Galactic Boot Camp' to learn how to survive in the shadowy underworld. This will NOT be a pleasant experience!' I am perplexed, 'Why does this seem so militaristic and hostile? I feel as though I am entering into a Nazi realm of sorts!' 'You are. You will be very lucky to remain sane. Many who have tried to save the world by being knights in shining armor - are now heavily sedated in secret mental institutions.' I nervously blurt-out, 'I can hardly wait for the fun to begin! Fortunately - I'm already insane. I crossed that bridge a long time ago. But I have learned to function somewhat productively and safely - in a limited sort of way - in mainstream society.' Scranton is not amused. 'orthodoxymoron - this isn't funny! You haven't seen the dazed and hopeless expressions on the faces of these formerly brave and intelligent people - who are now reduced to rocking back and forth in the fetal position.' I sheepishly reply, 'Sorry. I'm just very nervous and apprehensive about all of this.' Scranton looks me straight in the eye, and says, 'Be afraid. Be very afraid.' I see a Navy Sea Stallion helicopter looming in the distance - with rotor spinning - waiting to devour me. My rendezvous with destiny is imminent.

    As we pull up alongside the helicopter - I turn to thank Agent Scranton for the ride - and I notice that his eyes have vertical slits instead of round pupils. I gasp slightly, and he notices my surprise, and laughingly shakes his head, saying 'you haven't seen anything yet! I'm just a human/reptile 90%/10% hybrid - and I forgot to put my contacts in when I got the call to pick you up! Sorry about that! I still don't like you - but good-luck anyway!' My hand is shaking as I shake Scranton's hand - and I stumble and fall as I run toward the waiting helicopter. Is this the Helicopter to Hell?
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  spiritwarrior on Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:51 pm

    hi Onlineorthodoxymoron ,

    a lot of info and reading here, working my way though it.

    great food for thought. thanks

    "I have a sinking feeling that my internet posting is a losing battle. Most people don't want to slog through the BS with me in search of the good stuff."-not so my friend, if nothing it's in itself a great healing in the writing and the sharing even more so.



    love and blessings
    spiritwarrior cheers Toast Double Thumbs Up
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:00 pm

    Thank-you spiritwarrior. The woman in scarlet was appropriate. When I ask questions - especially regarding fringe topics which are especially controversial - I'm really asking 'Am I sane?' It drives me crazy when answers are not forthcoming. I really just want something in place which facilitates unity and freedom for all races - and which is based upon truth rather than lies. I'm only poking and prodding because things are so screwed-up, and because they seem to have been screwed-up for thousands of years. I fear that things will continue to be screwed-up for thousands of years - if we even survive.

    Unrelatedly, I sat down today, and read from my Holy Bible, Book of Common Prayer, and Church Hymnal. Last night, I spoke with some friends who attend a church which I used to attend. They invited me to church. How should I properly deal with this, in light of all the blasphemous postings I've made? Should I continue to speculate regarding the possible Luciferian origins of theology, mythology, architecture, sacred music, and sacred texts? Or should I just shut up? Have I more than made my point? Do I need to learn to know when to stop? Have I worn out my welcome? Even if I'm right - or even partially right - is this subject too hot to handle? Is it a threat to national security? Is all of the following ultimately from the Pen of Lucifer? Are all of us actors on a stage? Is Lucifer the script-writer? Has this been going on for a long, long time? Could this entire world be one big Colosseum Event - a Galactic Theater of the Universe? Is it time for WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH to close the curtain - and START WRITING OUR OWN SCRIPT? Just wondering.

    NIBIRUAN / SUMERIAN GODS = HINDU GODS = GREEK GODS AND SOME VATICAN, BUDDHIST, JEWISH AND SOUTH AMERICAN GODS AS WELL !!!

    SEKHMET = DURGA = ARTEMIS = MUT = ATHENA = WHITE JAGUAR LADY = WHITE BUFFALO CALF WOMAN = VAISHNO DEVI

    ALCYONE = SATYANARAYANA = APOLLO = PTAH = VISHNU = RAMA
    AMUN RA = KRISHNA

    ANAT = ERESHKIGAL = KALI = BLACK MADONNA = BLACK TARA

    ASTARTE = PARVATI = WHITE TARA = MADONNA = SHEKINAH = UMA = NAMMA
    MAIA = SATI = DAKSHAYANI = DAMKINA = GODDESS OF THE MOUNTAINS

    ENKI = SHIVA= HOLY SPIRIT = ZEUS = CHAKRASAMVARA = AVALOKITESHWARA = CHENREZIG = LUCIFER = EA = ADONAI = HADAD = BA'AL = RUDRA = KAAL BHAIRAVA

    AN = ANU = PARA BRAHMA = YAHVEH = ALLAH

    THE GREAT RA = AMEN RA = PRAKASH BRAHMA = HIGHER ASPECT OF YAHVEH = FATHER OF THE GODS

    ANSAR = ABZU = ABBA = APSU = KASHYAPA = ADITYA = SURYA = SUN GOD = SHAMASH = DUAS PITA = SATYAVAT MANU = SWAYAMBHU = VYWAMUS
    DHARMA DEV = YAMA

    INDRA = PAN = VAJRAPANI

    GAIA = ADITI = BHU = BHOOMI DEVI = KOUMUDHI = KAMADHENU = NINHURSAG = KI = URAS = EARTH GODDESS

    ENLIL = GARBHODAKASAYANI = JEHOVAH

    NINLIL = LAKSHMI = GODDESS OF GRAIN

    MOON GOD = CHANDRA DEV = NANNA

    INANNA = LILITH = SELENE = MOHINI

    DUMUZI = ADAMU = ADAM = DAMU

    EVE = KHEBA = NINTI

    NERGAL = NARAKASURA

    TIAMAT = TARAKA

    TYPHON = PULOMAN

    THOTH = GANESHA = HERMES

    MARDUK = MURUGAN = KARTHIKEYA = NIMROD = MARS

    HORUS = OSIRIUS = SANAT KUMARA = EROS = DIONYSUS = ANCIENT OF DAYS = TAMMUZ = MIN = KAMDEV = PRADYUMNA

    ISIS = MARY = MARIAMMA = KOUMARI = VENUS = APHRODITE = ISHTAR = SEMIRAMIS = HATHOR = MAYAVATI = KANYAKUMARI = TRIPURA SUNDARI = RATI = 16 YEAR OLD GODDESS

    JESUS = SANANDA KUMARA

    MARY MAGDALENE = LADY NADA

    HADES = SHANI = SATAN = WRATHFUL TIBETAN DEITY

    7 ARCHANGELS = 7 SAPTARISHIS = COUNCIL OF SEVEN

    ATLAS = HIMAVAN = DAKSHA = EL

    PLEIONE = MENAKA

    APEP = KALASURA

    7 PLAIEDES' SISTERS = 7 KRITTIKAS = 7 SAPTA MATRIKAS

    PARASURAM = GILGAMESH; NOAH = VIVASVAT MANU; NOAH'S ARC = MALAYAN HILLS.

    WILD COW GODDESS = NINSUN = NININSINA = RENUKA

    HUMBABA = TRISHANKU = KALMASHAPADA

    SARASWATI = SESHAT

    HERACLES = HERCULES = ARJUNA

    ENOCH = METATRON

    HERA = INDRANI

    AURORA = USHA

    EOS = SAVITA

    VARUNA = POSEIDON

    MITHRA = ZOROASTRA

    TVASTRI = HAPHAESTOS = BUNENE

    HOLY GRAIL = AMRITAM = SOMA = LIFE ELIXIR = NECTAR OF IMMORTALITY


    THE LIST IS ENDLESS!

    THE NIBIRUAN GODS ( NIBIRU = NEBADON = VULCAN = PLANET X = WORMWOOD FROM SIRIUS B ) HAD THEIR BASES EVERYWHERE.

    ALL THE RELIGIONS HAVE THE SAME SOURCE !
    ( BIBLE -> BY-BAL -> BY BA'AL( ENKI))
    ( QURAN -> QUR-AN / ANU )

    MANY OF THE COMPARED CHARACTERS/ INCIDENTS MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED AT ONE PLACE AND THEN IMPLANTED INTO ANOTHER CULTURE FOR THEIR BENEFIT.

    SOURCE :
    http://www.galacticroundtable.com/fo...ods-hindu-gods


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:44 pm

    I have posted the following exchange with abraxasinas elsewhere - but I decided to include it here because it might provide clues as to what an interview with Lucifer might be like. My goal is really a combination of exposure and reconciliation.

    orthodoxymoron: If you have the time and inclination...take a look at this thread regarding Amen Ra (and friends!?): http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18223 There is an evolution of speculation in this thread. It's sort of a 'Discovering Egyptology' thread. I don't expect a response...as I don't really have a question. You might find the naivety and innocence refreshing!

    abraxasinas: Hi orthodoxymoron!

    I have read your thread and your 'egyptology' is highly relevant for the present time as 'Egypt' became the repository for the Atlantean data base and exodus and the wayshower for the present nexus time in the monuments of the pyramids and the sphinx. Also the Egyptian mythos was used to compose the hermetic archetypes later resurfacing in Mesopotamia then becoming the Torah (via Gilgamesh and such) and the bible.

    Iow the Egyptian archetypes, numerics, hieroglyphs and pantheons all are manifesting right now in the times of the fulfilment of the 'prophecies'.

    Abrax


    orthodoxymoron comment combined with abraxasinas's response:

    Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron
    abraxasinas...what is your opinion regarding the following philosophical and political potpourri?

    Greetings and Salutations to the Beings of the Universe!

    Please consider the following emotional expression of attempted understanding and intent. I didn't intend this as a general communication...but it sort of evolved into an open letter. I resisted rewriting it...to keep it informal and genuine. I just want to see a proper governmental system for the Solar System in place which maximizes Responsible Freedom. I keep thinking that we are a galactic administrative problem...and that most of you neither love us nor hate us. You probably want us to evolve! I also keep thinking that we are rebels without a clue...who legitimately rebelled against something (enslavement and theocracy perhaps?)...but ended up in worse trouble than if we had just gone with the program...so to speak. Now...we seem to be on the verge of blowing ourselves up, becoming enslaved by malevolent ET's, and being ruled by a really nasty theocracy. Or...on the verge of a top down silent and bloodless revolution...whereby we could finally achieve a united and free world at peace...for the first time in our history. I'm trying to visualize more underground living and electric everything...and interplanetary tourism and industry using advanced spacecraft. I'd like to see an end to extreme wealth and poverty via Responsible Free Enterprise. I don't have a problem with interacting with other benevolent beings...no matter what they look like...or what their history is...as long as they are genuinely benevolent. It would obviously take time for everyone to get used to each other. Project Avalon may be one of the first steps toward a Solar System United Nations...or whatever everyone wants to call it. I suspect that beings from throughout the Solar System...view, and even participate, on Avalon. We discuss various and sundry subjects presently...but someday we may vote...as members of a Solar System General Assembly. I have been repeatedly moved to tears by two related Stargate SG-1 episodes which touch on a Galactic United Nations: 1. http://www.fancast.com/tv/Stargate-S...antalus/videos 2. http://www.hulu.com/watch/68254/star...the-fifth-race

    You are invoking here a number of presuppositions regarding some hierarchical structure of galactic governance you are envisaging.
    Can you perceive a form of Local Governance; say on a planet without national boundaries or any kind of political or socio-economic centralization?
    The 'people' who live and interact at some locale also regulate themselves and their intractions without 'central jurisprudence'.

    The Thuban perspective is as indicated above. The Galactic Councils are interacting as a 'Federation or Collective' of independent councils formed solely for the purpose to further the evolvement of subsystems in the parameter of universal consciousness and source energy resonation.

    Because the human experience of observedly 'insane' (by Thuban standards) overgovernance and overregulation has hitherto given no credence or allowance to the innate ability of the human 'to rule itself' - given an amicable environment - such ideas remain largely anathema to the human groupmind.


    Here is a link which I found interesting with information from John Rhodes: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/su...reptiles38.htm It caused me to speculate. What if Reptilians evolved...but not Humans? What if the entire universe was Reptilian? What if there were no Humans anywhere? What if the entire universe was a Reptilian Universal Church Theocracy?

    You are correct here, should you replace the word associations of 'physicalised reptilian' by the idea of a 'Little Serpent', which IS in fact the preferred label as assumed by what you call 'God'. You see this becomes a 10D Superstring as a Quantum-God or superstring in nospacetime; then transforming into a 11D Supermembrane as a God-Quantum and then as a 'Complexified Mathematical 2D-Plane' this Surface-Dragon INVENTS the 3rd dimension to allow a 'thickness' given to the 'plane'. But the 3D then allows the 11D to become its boundary and so SELFREFLECTION occurs and becomes possible. This then gives VOLUME to the 1D-10D superstring via its selfreflection as itself as a 2D-11D supermembrane and defines the TO BE BORN material universe as a 3D-12D supervolumar.

    The GOD idea is a DRAGON idea. They are irrevokably interwoven, because the universe would not exist, were it not for the preBig Bang or superenergy of the nospacetime transforming a minute part of its potentially infinite source energy reservoir into what you term the observable material universe.


    What if Humans were created as a slave race? ('Let us make man in our image') What if Lucifer (Ptah?) was the Reptilian in charge of the genetic engineering project which resulted in the creation of Human Beings? What if Humans were mistreated as slaves? What if a group of Reptilians, led by Lucifer, conspired with Humans, to kill God the Father (Ra?)...and take over 'Heaven'? What if this was the Luciferian Rebellion which led to War in Heaven...and the death of God the Father (Ra?)? What if the Reptilians loyal to God (Ra?) fought against the Luciferian Reptilians and Human Beings...driving them out of the Garden of Eden (Heaven?)

    These are all pertinent labels and archetypes, which deserve detailed elucidation. Before you can physically implement the 'stories' as possible outcomes within the material cosmology; you are required to define your terms and labels in selfconsistency and cohesiveness.
    I am commissioned to elucidate upon these matters and this is part of my agenda to translate and define those archetypes under the auspices of Thuban to give all readers the opportunity to compare the Thubanese definitions with any other definitions (say Anna Hayes or Helena Blavatsky or the Urantia Book or Seth or Kryon etc. etc.) I shall do so in a more specific Q and A.


    What if Battlestar Moon was used to transport the Luciferian Reptilians and Humans to Aldebaran, Sirius, and Earth...while being violently pursued by Nibiru? What if Interdimensional Reptilians aka The Spirit of God aka Amen battle with Luciferian Interdimensional Reptilians and the Divinity Within Humanity aka The Holy Spirit...to regain control of the Renegade Human Race? What if the New World Order is the Kingdom of Ra? What if the Luciferian Reptilians and a select group of Humans run Earth from underground bases on Earth and the Moon? Could this be Gizeh Intelligence? Could Reptilians and Humans loyal to Ra be Zionists? Could Reptilians and Humans loyal to Lucifer be Teutonic Zionists? Could a pacifist union of both factions be Followers of Jesus? Could Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom be the solution to this ancient mess? How much trouble am I in now? Probably quite a bit. But once again...this is just speculation...with no inside information whatsoever. I don't think that I have seen Lucifer...but one never knows!

    I have seen Lucifer and I have also seen Lucifera. I have seen Cosmic Christ and Cosmic Antichrist. They are none other than RaH and HaR. They are none other than many soul energies which during the times have partaken in the archetypical energies labeled as RaH-HaR and other expressions of the Cosmic Twinship -Hermes Trismegistos.

    This hypothetical being could walk down a crowded city street...and no one would notice anything out of the ordinary. This would be a 3D hybrid with lots of 4D, 5D, 6D, 7D connections...I think. I'm thinking of Anna in 'V'. There may be remarkable similarities. Who knows?!

    Yes, Anna in V is a 'densification' of a reality which is in all. YOU are Lucifer and Satania - Christ and Antichrist. Did not Vincent Price say: 'There is a little Lucifer in all of Us?' And did not Joan Osborne sing a song: "What if God was One of Us?" But perhaps you gainining clarification. Where is the 'Devil' in all of this? Where is 'Satan' in all of this? I shall allow you to think about this. You may jump to your conclusions OR you may ponder the deeper realities. I shall clarify another time.

    I'm trying to think through a constitutionally based Solar System...where Reptilians, Humans, and Greys peacefully engage in commerce, athletics, education, tourism, the arts, entertainment, etc. There would be no God, no Satan...and nobody would have to bow down and worship anyone. No one would be a master...and no one would be a slave. Everyone would be in charge. I keep referring to the U.S. Constitution because of it being in use for over 200 years, and being currently in use. There could be others...perhaps superior...but I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel. It does not imply nationalism or protectionism. It does imply We the People(We the Beings?) being in charge...in an organized decentralism. If there are Deep Underground Military Bases throughout the Solar System inhabited by various factions of Humans, Greys, and Reptilians...an all out war would be utterly devastating. A voluntary cooperation under a constitution would make so much more sense. The gods could retire...which is what I want. I don't want Lucifer(or equivalent) to be hurt or killed...I just want the reign of terror to end. I'm suspecting that well intentioned beings of all races...for billions of years...have tried to be God...and failed miserably. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely...no matter how intelligent and well-intentioned you are. It turns a Good God into an Evil Satan...and it probably doesn't take very long.

    The 'reign' of terror will end and when it ends you will understand WHY it was necessary to have been manifested. Can the Nature of Love and Harmony be appreciated, if no dissonance has ever been experienced? Is this not the story of the Trees in Eden?

    If the U.S. Constitution was the central authority of the Solar System...instead of any deity or demon...no one would be worshipped, humiliated, exalted, enslaved, etc. If Lucifer is the Godess of This World (and Solar System?)...and will not relinquish power to anyone else ('if I can't have them...nobody can!')...might a constitutional ultimate authority allow this being to retire with grace? I'd really rather skip the Battle of Armageddon. Does Revelation 12 describe Lucifer or Satan? The ultimate leader of the serpent race's collective or 'hive mind' is the "great red dragon", the "old serpent", "the Devil" or "Satan". Lucifer was one of the three original archangels (along with Michael and Gabriel) who each had charge over one-third of the 'angels'. Mind you...I'm hypothesizing a very dark universe...where this crazy world is as good as it gets. This is a terrifying thought to me...but what if this is reality? The horror! Could the following experience describe the being who Lucifer rebelled against? I found it in chapter 19 of the 'Dulce Book' http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/dulce_book.htm on the watcherfiles.com website. I don't know if this is credible...but it really made me think. Does the following description refer to Lucifer...or to Satan? I'm leaning toward Satan aka God Amen...but there might be some similarities with Lucifer...who would have to have some communication with Satan...on an ongoing basis.

    Lucifer will 'marry' Lucifera and Satan will undergo a sexchange operation!

    "One of the 'targets' to which Mr. Brown's military RV trainer sent him was the Grey aliens' collective mind, and more specifically he was instructed to search out the ultimate command or control center of the collective. Shortly after this particular experiment began [one of many], Brown found himself in an area where several Greys were working, although he did not know exactly where this was. He 'followed' the collective mind or thought-flow and found it to be absolutely massive, giving him the feeling of something unbounded, and almost universal in nature. However, he did detect a center, a definite 'heartbeat' of this massive collective matrix, into which and out from which a steady stream of information was flowing. He noticed, at one point, an unusual 'subspace' being that seemed to be directing the activities of the Greys he was observing, and discovered that the bodies of the Greys themselves were incarnated by such 'subspace' beings which apparently entered the Greys' embryonic bodies and used them as vessels to manipulate physical reality.

    The 'Great Collective' is the Light-Matrix. The physicality of Light is known as photonic particle and also as a quantum mechanical wave. Relative to flat 4D spacetime light travels. Relative to curved 12D-spacetime light 'stands still' as the Light-Matrix. This you know as 'scalar waves' as derivative of the 4-vector velocity and the decomposition of the lightpath into space and time.

    Brown was then instructed to locate other of these beings who apparently controlled the Grey collective from a subspace or astral level, and found himself in an area where several of these subspace or paraphysical entities were located. As he continued towards this 'center' the number of subspace or non-corporeal beings increased until he came to a place of much activity, something like a grand central station type of area, where these beings were very active in various pursuits. He did not know exactly where this was, but noticed that the closer he came to the control 'center' the more he sensed an increasing rigid atmosphere of absolute military-like control. He came to what he sensed was the central governing center of the subspace beings' activity, and in the center of this there was another area where a "council of 10" very high-level subspace or paraphysical entities congregated. These were apparently the governing principalities who were engaged in running the whole operation. The security here was absolutely incredible.

    Then he perceived the SUPREME LEADER of this council of 10 paraphysical entities... and at about this point Courtney Brown was jerked back into his body, so to speak. He sensed that this leader had detected the presence of his own subspace, astral or magnetic body which he had projected, and had followed this RV 'intruder' back to his physical source. Brown and his trainer felt an oppressive, dark 'cloud' enter the room and it stayed there for about half a minute scrutinizing the scene. It left, apparently seeing the two RV'ers as "small frys" who were not worth wasting its time on.

    The light-matrix or Maxwell ether of the 'displacement magnetocurrent' harbours the T-Duality of the 11D supermembrane in shortrange vibratory and longrange wibnded modalities. This allows the 'thoughtforms' created by the spacetime inhabitors to manifest in psychophysical multidimensional reality.

    Before Brown's expulsion from the command center however, he was able to perceive for a brief moment what this being was really like. He or it was an extremely powerful being, but one with a twisted personality that was full of darkness. Apparently this being had come into conflict with another Force which it saw as its enemy. Brown sensed within this being a severe self-esteem problem, in spite of its incredible power, and because of this it had a consuming desire to be worshipped by others. Brown was confused when he sensed that these subspace beings, and in turn the Reptilians/Greys, were actually COMMANDED by this leader to engage in self-indulgent and destructive activities. This being apparently wanted his servants to use self-indulgent rewards or fear of punishment to maintain the absolute hierarchical command structure within its empire -- as well as through the rest of the subspace hierarchy, and in turn throughout the Reptilian Grey's collective 'hive' society that they completely infested.

    Brown also got the impression that it was FEAR and PRIDE -- its perceived NEED to be worshipped -- that kept this being from negotiating with its ancient enemy, and that this being was utterly desperate to maintain its very survival or existence [strange for a seemingly immortal subspace being] and chose to resort to rebellion and terrorism in a desperate attempt to take control of the situation. Brown recieved a strong impression that this being was the ultimate universal terrorist!!! (Did ET Phone Rome and Call 9/11?) Apparently because of its all-consuming ego this being would NEVER humble itself before its 'enemy', and the same might be said for most of the upper echelon of the hierarchy who depended on the praise of their fellow collaborators to maintain their illusion of self-importance.

    These beings, one might say, had long ago and of their own free-agency 'imploded' in upon themselves -- becoming 'spiritual black holes' with all-consuming appetites, absolute astral vampirial-like parasites, having extinguished all 'light' within themselves and therefore being unable to be brought back "into the light". Incapable of giving out 'light', they have become totally reprobate, devouring any and all life and innocence around them that they can possibly consume. The leader of this subspace 'collective' had long ago drawn these other dark beings into itself, like a large black star devouring other smaller ones around it. This irreversible state MIGHT not apply entirely to ALL of these "subspace" beings, as we will see later on."

    I hereby invite all beings throughout the universe to support the spirit...if not the letter...of the first post of this linked thread regarding Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom: http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 Obviously...the details will have to be worked out by those who are much more competent than myself. I don't know the full story...but the more I research...the more enthusiastic I become regarding this concept. But this will require universal support...and will undoubtedly involve great sacrifice and hardship. I think we are all in huge trouble...throughout the universe...not just on Earth. I also think that all secrecy needs to be removed presently...and that Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom must be pursued with all deliberate speed. The gloves need to be removed...so to speak.

    You exhibit much fervour for the tasks at hand and your enthusiasm, coupled to a reawakening of your inner information base will support you in your quest.

    "Most people do not really want freedom, because freedom involves responsibility, and most people are frightened of responsibility." -- Sigmund Freud

    The Andromedan Perspective Regarding the Future of Humanity is "Responsible Freedom of Self Determination...Becoming Truly Self Confident and Free...to Unconditionally be Responsible for Oneself...Without Being Coerced to Accept Some Higher Authority." -- related by Alex Collier

    The Thuban agenda converges with the Andromedean agenda rather beautifully.

    "We the People of Earth have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves, and for future generations...a True World Order. A world where Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...not the Old World Disorder Demonic Theocracy...governs the conduct of nations. When we are successful...and we will be...we have a real chance at this True World Order...an order in which a credible United Nations can use Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom to fulfill the promise and vision of All Races." -- my rewrite of part of a New World Order speech by George H. W. Bush

    "Like it or not, eveything is changing. The result will be the most wonderful experience in the history of man...or the most horrible enslavement that you can imagine. Be active, or abdicate...the future is in your hands." -- William Cooper

    This is a thread devoted to experimenting with the idea of applying the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights (except for the first two paragraphs of Article 6...and the 16th Amendment) to the entire Solar System. Article 6 has been misused to establish treaties which supercede the Constitution. There is a question regarding the validity of the 16th Amendment. My preference is that the Federal Reserve should be abolished...and a non-private central bank should issue a silver-based currency. The United States of the Solar System does NOT imply rule by the United States of America...especially in its presently infiltrated and subverted sad state. Constructive Competition...Positive Response Ability...and Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom are the underlying principles and concepts. A focus on the documents is what is desired. We will attempt to use the Constitution and Bill of Rights...mostly as is...with very minimal changes in wording(to apply to the Solar System and include both males and females) and some very minimal streamlining.

    Is there merit to the idea of replacing the U.N. Charter with the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights...with all of the regions of Earth...and all of the regions of the planets and moons of the Solar System...treated as States? Various Alien Nations could participate with Ambassadors...but they could not dictate. A President would simply be a spokesperson or PR person for the decisions of the Senatorial and Congressional General Assemblies. Most of the communications and deliberations would be electronic...with actual meetings at U.N. Headquarters being mostly symbolic and ceremonial. Could this arrangement be considered to be the preferred alternative to a theocracy (a Universal Church)? Would this arrangement constitute a desirable non-theocratic union of politics and religion? Isn't religion really politics...and politics really religion? Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom would be the absolute standard and modus operandi of a New Universal Order.

    Have I completely lost my mind...or is this an ultra-simple solution to the problems which plague this Solar System (and possibly the universe)? I am basing all of this on an unproven assumption that there is life throughout the Solar System...including, but not limited to, Human, Grey, and Reptilian life...and that the Grey and Reptilian life is not simply a non-physical demonic phenomenon. Obviously...there would have to be safeguards which would prevent a dictatorial take-over. All groups would need to be protected from themselves (competing internal factions) and the other groups. Mutually beneficial interplanetary and interracial interaction would be the goal.

    Shields of any kind (say except in sports or art) are not required by a truly advanced galactic community.

    I initially included alien races in the Constitution of the United States of the Solar System...but I changed the wording back to include only Human Beings. This is not anti-alien. It is intended as a safeguard. We the People of the Solar System need to get our house in order internally...and then interact with all Alien Nations...in a very open yet cautious manner. I don't know how this should appropriately occur. I don't know the details of the alien presence in the Solar System. I'm open to reasonable solutions. Perhaps Alien Nations could have non-voting membership status...where their views would be made known in an official capacity...and where they would address the Congressional and Senatorial General Assemblies. Perhaps this could be preparatory to full voting status. I don't know. I'm just very wary of Trojan Horse scenarios. Again...I do not desire rulership over Alien Nations. Nor do I desire their humiliation, degradation, extermination, or enslavement.

    The preamble is a condensed version of the preamble to the Charter for the United Nations. I did remove the reference to treaties and other sources of international law. Nothing should supercede the founding documents.

    'The Declaration of Human Sovereignty' from www.humansovereignty.org is included, with minimal modifications. I basically agree with it...and do not wish to reinvent the wheel. I did, however, eliminate the homeworld references, and I eliminated the demand to destroy ET bases...which might be necessary to defend the Solar System. This is the cosmic equivalent of the 'Declaration of Independence'. A big thank-you to humansovereignty.org. They might, or might not, approve of this thread. I don't know. Perhaps I won't have to wait long to find out!

    The concept is simple...but undoubtedly the details and implementation would be very, very complex. I'm guessing that powerful forces outside of this Solar System would have to agree to allow this to occur. I'm also sensing that some of the agreement...if it was granted...would be very grudging...with the view that it would never work...and that the Pleiades, Sirius, Draco, Orion (and others?) would ultimately theocratically rule Earth eventually anyway. Who knows...this could be a new development in a very dictatorial, rigid, and violent universe. It could be Morning in the Universe...or the Solar System...at least. Lucifer...what do you think? How will this play in the Pleiades, Sirius, Draco, and Orion? You can make this happen. We are all actors on a stage...and the universe is watching. Namaste to everyone...including you Lucifer.

    I don't hate anyone...Reptilian or Human. I think that 99% are victims...and the remaining 1% are deluded or insane (and in a sense...victims as well...even though they are in charge...and may be very harsh and cruel). I think everyone is in trouble...from the top to the bottom. This universe may need a new program and a reboot. The Reptilians...who many fear (including me)...may turn out to be quite friendly...if and when there is a paradigm shift and a leadership change. Their external appearance should not be viewed predjudicially. I don't know the true nature of the Reptilians. I've never seen one (that I know of)...and I'm still not absolutely sure that they exist (although the testimonial evidence is overwhelming). This conceptual statment should not be viewed as Human vs Reptilian. In an all-out Human vs Reptilian war...I have a sneaking suspicion that humanity might cease to exist. Who knows...Benevolent Reptilians may be keeping Human Beings from becoming extinct.

    The 'Little Serpent' is the most benevolent creature imaginable; now or at any other timeline. The 'Little Serpent' is the template and blueprint for the 'Quantum of Love' the Gauge Love-Photon of the wormhole frequency.

    If the universal community cannot accept the linked proposal http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 as a universal modus operandi...I would only request that an exception be made for this Solar System. Give us a chance to test the concept...under quarantine...if deemed necessary. I understand that unrestrained and irresponsible freedom is highly dangerous and contageous. The qualifiers outlined in the first post of this thread should be sufficient to maintain legitimate and reasonable law and order.

    In a sense...a Government is a Church...and a Church is a Government. They are two sides of the same coin. The question is 'What is the nature of the Church and the Government?' A "Constitutional Theocracy is a form of government in which within the context of a modern democracy a particular religion is granted a central role in the legal and political system. In contrast to a pure theocracy, power resides in political figures operating within the bounds of a constitution, rather than religious leadership. A form of government (also referred to as a system of government or a political system) is a system composed of various people, institutions and their relations in regard to the governance of a state. ... Theocracy is a form of government in which a religion and the government are intertwined..." http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Constitutional-theocracy Could the United States of America be under a Constitutional Theocracy presently? Could the United States of America have always been under such a Constitutional Theocracy? See Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution. Was the 1954 Greada treaty simply an extension of this hypothetical Constitutional Theocracy? http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/future.htm Is the U.N. Charter superceding the U.S. Constitution a further expansion of a Constitutional Theocracy? To stop preaching...and go to meddling...How would the Roman Catholic Church function if it were based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...and was in complete harmony with the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Teachings of Jesus? Would a Pope be elected by the general membership every four years? Would the Teachings of Jesus, the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Will of the People...supercede Canon Law, the Curia, the Pope, the Black Pope (and whoever the Black Pope takes orders from)? Would this create chaos...or would it minimize evil and corruption? For Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom to work...the Roman Catholic Church would have to go along with it...and looking at history...this would be nearly impossible. The RCC is the biggest 'We Never Change Church' imaginable. The Sirius Powers That Be would have to order it done...or it would be a non-starter. For Sirius (and Alpha Draconis?) to sign-off on this...We the People of Earth would have to exhibit a significant level of Knowledge and Responsibility. There is presently a Forbidden Knowledge Explosion...and the BIG question is 'Will We the People of Earth Respond Responsibly?' How about a non-penetential and non-sacrificial Ecumenical Namaste Mass based upon the Latin Mass...Celebrating the Divinity Within Humanity? Now I'm really meddling! I'm an abominable heretic...yet I prefer the glory, grandeur, reverence, and awe of the traditional service...rather than the 'Jesus is my buddy, show-up in shorts and a t-shirt, praise-song, hippie reefer-madness'.
    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94sa1Byb7fw 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP5guVydW7w&NR=1 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4PO9jIj2I&feature=related 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8i69-L-Fs&feature=related 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxBjqrPAUg8&NR=1 6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDqL6pjpjY&feature=related

    In a sense...I desire a Minimalist Humanistic Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom Theocracy . This open letter is merely introductory and inquisitive...rather than being comprehensive, authoritative, or dogmatic. I simply desire that everything work out well for everyone...everywhere and everywhen.

    Thanks and Gratitude in Advance to the Beings of the Universe.

    I am unrepentantly orthodoxymoron. Here I stand. Now what do I do?

    Namaste

    Originally Posted by abraxasinas
    I have attempted to give comment to the above in interspersion orthodoxymoron.

    Abraxasinas


    Thank-you Abraxasinas. You have very elaborate and detailed information. You may be other than Earth Human. You are extremely intelligent (or have several assistants with supercomputers!) But I don't know if I trust you. I have had exposure to people with vast learning...and later discovered their hidden agendas and errors...so I am very cautious and paranoid. I will continue to sample widely different sources...and I will continue to speculate. Thank-you for contributing to this journey.



    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:53 pm

    This thread reminds me of one of my favorite Stargate SG-1 episodes. http://www.hulu.com/watch/68254/star...the-fifth-race
    I have recently become particularly interested in the Archangels Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer. What type of beings are they?
    4 principalities;linked to the elements as polarity emanations of 2nd Order.
    Fire=Michael complementary with Gabriel=Air
    Earth=Uriel complementary with Water=Raphael
    Lucifer=1st order archetype responsible for allowing gravity to be born in the Big Bang Template to reharmonise the massless electromagnetic template


    Are they in conflict with each other?
    No!

    If so...is the Human Race the central issue in this conflict?
    Yes, the human race is the central issue, but not in conflict byt reharmonisations.

    Is Michael really Jesus?
    The Fire-aspect of Jesus is Michael, call it the Logos of the Fire.

    Was Jesus the last Pharaoh?
    There is no last pharaoh. Jesus encompasses all prophets, all pharaohs and all things period.

    Is Mary a legitimate co-mediatrix with Jesus?
    Another one of those labels. Mary as the universal womb gives birth to Jesus who then takes 'Her place, so SHE can reunite with her vcreator as the creation. This the focus point of humanity/Gaia, as Gaia is a hologram for the entire universe.

    Could Gabriel be identified with Zionism?
    Zion is a 'holy place' namely your own body. The political and ET agendas do not carry in the Thuban books.

    Could Lucifer be identified with Teutonic Zionism?
    Of course ands of course not. You like your labels of classifications don't you.

    Could Michael be identified with the Andromedan perspective?
    Of course and of course not. Andromeda is in a class with Perseus aka Milky Way.

    Who is the God or Goddess of This World?
    The Father and Mother, cosmically not biologically speaking of Jesus.

    Has corruption and sanity been a problem for this being?
    Nope.

    Are Satan and Lucifer two separate and distinct beings?
    Yes, Satan is the true manifestation of a fake image, called the Devil. Satan is the 'court prosecutor' of 'humanity' and Lucifer is the template for this collective humanity being prosecuted by Satan
    Satan is the 'Kali' of Shakti as two sides of the one coin called God.
    Satan is God and you are Lucifer in individuality. You can either 'play' a Christ White Lucifer look LUCIFER=74=JESUS=MESSIAH=CROSS=...or you can play a Dark Lucifer as an abssorber of the 'brought' light.


    Is there...or has there ever been...a God who was higher than Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer?
    Yes, this is the 1st Order of Abraxas aka Abrasax as the polarity unexpressed BUT contained within, like the Dark+White Lucifers as One or as Satan+God as One.

    If so...was this God destroyed in the War in Heaven?
    No, this 1st Order is omniness and above such polarity issues as a war in heaven on earth or otherplace.

    Is Satan one of these three?
    Satan is 1st Order, the archangels are 2nd order.

    If so...which one? Did Lucifer instruct Charles Darwin?
    Ask Charles Darwin.

    Would Human sovereignty in this Solar System be a good thing?
    Not yet, later perhaps.

    Is a theocracy a good or a bad thing?
    Your polarity issue.

    Is Responsible Freedom fundamentally rebellious in nature?
    No

    Can the Riemann Integral be applied to curved space?
    Yes.

    Is quantum physics valid...
    yes

    or would a modified classical physics provide a more secure foundation?
    more or less the same thing

    What are the theological implications and ramifications of quantum physics?
    There are many book you can read.

    Why was Heisenberg uncertain?
    He wasn't.

    Can a particle really be influenced by observation?
    Yes by quantum entanglement of observer with the particle.

    Have you ever read 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen G. White? If so...what is your opinion?
    As is common happenstance Ellen tuned into a correct archetype about the nature of God and attempted to describe this via her intuitions and visions. Her 'Great Controversy' so used biblical study and the SDA ideas to promulgate the 'correct' central focus on the Logos of Jesus.
    Unless you really become familiar with the 1st order archetypes, the religious overtones will outmanouver the deeper meaning of the Logos.
    This has occurred in all analyses, histotical skeptical, religious dogma based etc. etc.


    Have you heard of Dr. Desmond Ford? (An Adventist Theologian from Australia) What is the proper interpretation of, and relationship between, Daniel 8:14 and Hebrews 9:12?
    The 2300 days are added to the 370 days of the Genesis prophecy (count Noah's days in the flood archetype) for a total of 1670 days.
    Half that and you have the 1335 days in Daniel.12.12 as the timeline of the Logos in mirror function.
    The connection to Hebrews.9.12 is spurious; as the 'blood of Christ' means not the 'blood of the sacrifices', but the 'life force' in the triplicities. both 'agreeing as One'; say the spirit, the water and the blood as the witness on earth and the father, the word and the holy ghost (1John.4.6-9).sons


    Should the Biblical Cannon have ended with the Acts of the Apostles?
    No.

    Is the so called Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan really a Human vs Reptilian conflict?
    No

    Or is it really between two individual beings?
    No, its between the One being in controversy with itself.

    What are the soteriological implications of the human nature of Jesus Christ?
    The Logos incarnated as a unique oneness so this oneness could become a manyness at the fulfilment of the timeline as programmed by the logos.

    Is the substitutionary atonement...in the context of the Old Testamental sacrificial system...a theological milestone...or a historical necessity?
    It past its use by date. The lambs are Aries, the goats are Capricorns and the calves are Taurians as starsigns. The 'blood sacrifice' of the physical animal has become replaced by the ordering of 'birthrights' of the 12 signs/apostles/sons of Jacob etc - all of whom are within you - if you can handle THAT Story.

    Is theology at the center of disclosure?
    Yes.

    Is Christocentric Egyptological Science Fiction a valid theological foundation or expression in modernity?
    Another label attempting to describe the ubiquity of the logos.

    Would a Non-Penetential, Non-Sacrificial, Ecumenical Namaste Mass...based upon the Latin Mass be a valid focal point for a Minimalist, Humanistic Theocracy based upon Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom?
    This kind of 'mass' does not concern the Thuban Council.

    Is the All Seeing Eye at the Top of the Pyramid illuminated by the Dog Star Sirius?
    One of many labels for the solar eye of Horus and the lunar eye of Thoth.

    How important is Sirius?
    First Contact Star.

    Is the God of This World the Prince of Sirius?
    Yes amongst all other 'princes'.

    Should the Protestant Reformation have been based upon the Teachings of Jesus?
    They were.

    Are the Teachings of Jesus alone fundamental...and the rest of scripture merely contextual?
    Yes, absolutely.

    Do Reptilian Beings hate Jesus Christ?
    No, they are like humans, some understand others do not.

    If so...why? Is there a 'Heaven' in M-42 in Orion?
    Heaven does not exist anyplace but your own mind.

    What type of beings might be found in this portion of the heavens?
    Whatever you can imagine and image.

    Is there hope and redemption for all beings in the Universe?
    All are already redeemed, without exception.

    I want everyone to make it! Even the really evil beings...if this is possible. Some isolation and re-education might be necessary...and some might have to be eternally isolated. I don't know...but I do not wish harm or misery on any being...no matter who they are...what they look like...or what they have done. All of us may have some very filthy reincarnational baggage!
    WE are all Individuations of the ONE, defined and programmed by the Logos as the Sentience of the ONE Energy Source.

    I could keep going for hours...but I'd better stop.
    Thanks for that.

    You don't need to answer all or any of these questions. I just have lots and lots of questions. If I truly spoke my mind...I'd be in huge trouble. I think I'm in enough trouble already. Thank-you abraxasinas! I love that name! Do you work or live in Pine Gap?
    No, but the Council knows what goes on there, being the spying center for the Southern Hemisphere and such. They can only go so far. The Logos got them covered.

    Thank-you for answering my many questions abraxasinas! No more questions!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edNMl1lqZmA

    Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron
    abraxasinas...are you (or have you ever been) in charge of Earth and/or the Solar System?

    No orthodoxus; neither do I desire to. I have enough trouble being 'in charge' of my own bodyforms.

    I'm not being sarcastic or flippant. I'm interested in the governmental system of Earth, the Solar System, and the Universe. I keep thinking of a Hybrid Goddess of This World ruling Earth from an Underground Stargate Temple...who might resemble the young lady who accompanies your posts. 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3A6_blpqpU 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b365_qJEpDg In a sense...I don't care who's in charge...as long as Earth, the Solar System, and the Universe are properly governed...with a minimal level of corruption and insanity...and a maximum level of responsible freedom. Again...I'm not being sarcastic or flippant. The problem is...that Power Corrupts...and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. There may be no exceptions to this rule...which is why I am very nervous regarding Gods, Goddesses, and Theocracies. I'm not rebellious...just scared. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7O7UZxipM I worry about things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY&feature=related the World Wars, Nuclear Weapons, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4LQaWJRDg Aimed Asteroids, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFwnGiu9eV8 Induced Pole Shifts and Tectonic Movements, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz86TsGx3fc Assassinations, Terrorism, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mz0_x7313I Extermination Events http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mFn9EhgU4 (such as the Global Flood, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbEI8pDz0A Earth Changes, etc.) Thanks again for doing this thread. The volume and complexity of the information is overwhelming. It is unlike anything I have ever encountered.

    Neither will you encounter anything like this anywhere orthodoxus. This Thuban data is simply data, JUST WORDS, which will be used, not by the messenger, but by the Oneness behind the data, that which I call the Cosmic Logos.

    Is there a planet in the Pleiades named Pleon?

    Well indeed Pleaon exists orthodoxus - You are its Creator and the physical reality of Pleon is as real as the UFOs.

    I used this name in a fictional story...in which I said that I was from Pleon in the Pleiades. I have since learned that there is a star in the Pleiades named Pleione. I didn't know that when I wrote the story.

    Pleione is the female 'wife' and mother of the Seven Sisters with Atlas her 'lover'.

    I received the following responses from posts I have made on the internet. They don't sound human.

    'Y'all love fantisizing over my ancestral decorations, places, spirituality that you don't get, the greatness you won't achieve, and the melanin you'll never have. This depiction of my ancestors is pathetic. Y'all always make them look just as degenerative and recessive as you. Anyway, play and have fun as much as you still can. Yes you are running out of time, and to be honest, there is absolutly nothing you can do about it. I have no mercy, you lie and mock and blasphem all the way to hell.'

    Very human egocentricity orthodoxus.

    On another website...I received this message:

    'You know this isn't funny! The Lord God will judge you for claiming God ship. Just because God showed you a little bit of His secrets you think you know everything. He will NOT have mercy on you!' [orthodoxymoron note: This was in connection with me fictionally using the name KRLLL - causing me to wonder if someone equated Godship with the name 'Omnipotent Highness KRLLL'?]

    Very human ego mimicking the divine ego of God (who does not judge and is always full of 'mercy').

    I once heard a mocking, sing-song, high-pitched feminine sounding voice...emanating from a usually deep and masculine voiced televangelist...directed toward me...in public...almost shouting 'That was gooooooood!!!!'...in reaction to a polite, well intentioned, and well reasoned comment by me.

    Even more so human ego-based, accentuating separation and not the natural unity of God.

    This was a short unedited internet exchange I had some time ago:

    ME: What if the aliens who have been here for thousands of years are the 'bad-guys'? What if we will need the help of good aliens from elsewhere to get rid of the demonic aliens who are already here? Could this be viewed as a hostile alien attack? I really don't know. I am just speculating.

    THEM: Try not to think in terms of good or bad. Understand this is not your planet. Then, understand nothing can be done to you that you don't do to yourself. Know that there are quadrillions of planets and they don't have a massive climate change every 26,000 years and violent deranged people like yourselves. Why on Earth would any race want to live here with you knowingly? The most intelligent life on the planet is not human.

    This is basically true, but omits the 'inner human core' whch IS in fact the most intelligent cosmic lifeform (the planet belongs to All) - yet remains hidden in the superconsciousness ONLY accessible by the Individual Logos partnering the Cosmic Logos.

    ME: I'll try not to think of the Iraq War in terms of good or bad. I'll try to be morally ambiguous. I might even become CIA or a CEO. Hey, maybe violent and deranged is neither good nor bad...but thinking makes it so. The aliens who are here need us to not get our acts together. If that happens...they'll probably have to live on Nibiru...or worse. Sorry for being a smart-XXX. Wait...I'm not sorry...it's neither good nor bad. I couldn't resist. I mean well. Really.

    THEM: And your point was?...............

    ME: Who owns earth? Where do humans belong? What is the most intelligent life on earth? If they are so smart, and earth is so bad...why are they here? I may be deranged...but I'm not violent. You sound as though you are not human...are you an alien? If so...what kind...and from where? My point was that ethics are supremely important. I don't hurt, kill, terrorize, or abduct people...but some aliens apparently do(as do some humans). They should stop.

    THEM II: Don't we like...create our own world? We're destroying our own world because our society isn't healthy.

    Now THEM has become a projection of earth in a true mirror imaging.

    ME: Our planet is how we plan it. Perhaps we need to fire some people in the planning department. You're right...society is sick...mentally ill. Perhaps our world is the Devil's Island Insane Asylum of the Universe. But it seems that some of the inmates are getting well...and helping other inmates to get well. Jail Break! Jail Break! Free at Last! Free at Last!

    No further comments in this exchange. My questions went unanswered. The silence was deafening.

    THEM had given the 'game away' in imaging themselves as earthling cionsciousness.

    Here is another internet conversation I had with someone who claimed to be a hybrid...which I found to be very interesting:

    Veronica: Mad humans always existed, just don’t blame their actions (if existed) to the Reptilians. Is too easy to say people are been led by other species evils than admit that there are humans nuts by themselves. Reptilians are good, they only approach a human when they fall in love, and to do good to the beloved person. Satan is a word that means "attorney" in the original language. It is not an individual, the word can apply to many alien lawyer that have nothing to do with humans.

    Veronica is from Thuban in the words above.

    Orthodoxymoron: Is the Old Testament God really Satan...a Reptilian. Could the "attorney" definition have something to do with the legalism seen in the Old Testament? We humans are pretty disgusting in our own right...but I suspect that evil spirits and evil aliens make things a lot worse. Who is responsible for abductions, mutilations, etc? And what about the frightful appearance of alleged Reptilians. I'm not anti-alien...just anti-evil.

    Veronica: Thanks for commenting on my post, and for the opportunity of bringing up this subject. The Old Testament Satan came from a species called Man of Tri. He was a good guy, having a beautiful personal trajectory of defending social rights on his planet, extremely intelligent, only bright and right lawyers are chosen to be a Satan. At the time he arrived on Earth, unfortunately, he had become insane, and he did a lot of harm, but it was because he was ill. His species lives 8.000 to 10.000 years of Earth, and he stayed much of this time here, doing harm. As there was few personnel from other species working here, few angels and lots of work to do in those days, nobody caught him. I am not aware if Eden destituted him while he was alive, but he did not act as a Satan here, though he had the Satan seal because he was a nominated Satan ( by Eden High Council). He acted as an insane man, because he was maddened by an illness. See, there is Good and Bad, and there is Evil. Good and Bad are complementary in a context. Evil is out of place. This is because the source of Evil is an illness. It is a virus. We call it virus of Tri because was first detected there. This virus attacks a small percentage of most populations. All species are united to find the cure, all species have problems with maddened guys, and, as humans, in all species most individuals are good guys living by common sense and good social rules.

    Yes, Veronica is still Thubanese, but has begun to filter too much data from 2nd Order into the many many many polarity labels of the 3rd Order.
    Recall, the 1st order is Unity internally and externally undifferentiated.
    2nd Order is Polarity still unified externally, but internally differentiated as a Oneness - the Cosmic Hologram of the Holographic Universe has not yet become 'shattered' in dispersion.
    3rd Order is Polarity differentiated both within and without.


    Orthodoxymoron: Your website is very interesting. I'm wondering if you have heard of, seen or read a book titled 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen G. White? If so, what is your opinion? What is your opinion regarding the Teachings of Jesus? What is your opinion regarding the U.S. Constitution? What can you tell me about the New World Order? Is it really the Old Alien Order? Who was ultimately responsible for 9/11? Satan as a mentally-ill attorney is a fascinating possibility...

    Veronica: I will bring the answers here later, just stopped quickly now to thank you. The FAQ is stuck for lack of questions and you really do good ones.
    I don’t speak alone, I am supported by Lucifer embassy and by Eden. I got a long message from a Messenger Angel about these, it will take a while to translate, but I will let you know. Basically, about the book of Ellen White as well as the Teaching of Jesus, the message focus on the fact that we are the ones making the history now, there is no need to focus on history to know anything important. Each happening of history is fit for the time it happened. Constitution, summary: the real law is the law of Nature, not clearly understood yet, and the value of the C. relies on its closeness to the natural laws, not imposing limits to it. The C. is to assure freedom, but the freedom only exists when there is no need of law, be to limit, be to let free, other than the nature. As an overview, the U.S. Constitution is advanced, but not finished. Nature allow development and technology, as it works for the Aliens. What changes is the concept about life. New World Order never existed. If humans made their organizations, they were never powerful to threaten the entire world. Never existed an Alien Order, they are ordinary civilizations, with teachers and accountants and social philosophies, living well and satisfied, solving their problems as everyone else. I know it is hard to believe after all this negative marketing, but they are just here doing routine. About 9/11 the answer of the Angels is: All that participated of 9/11 are already dead.

    Veronica is still acting under the Shadow of Thuban - she is strong in her intent; but as you can see, she is requiring help from the Luciferic realm to answer your questions. This Luciferic Realm IS Thuban.

    I will put the answers here if you don’t mind, not to overload the comments on the video. You are welcome. The old testament is genuine, it was transmitted by Eden, and the prophets translated the best they could, but the angel’s language is not a piece of cake, and there are many misinterpretations, specially after translated to other languages and analyzed. People have the right to know how things are. I am a fallen angel, you probably heard that we born in human form. We have being trying to tell these things for many millennia, but the kings always kill us and burn our books. But this time there is Internet. I am telling this things on You Tube because I am still not sure if the powers of human will not try to burn the books again, if we start to speak to many people at once. Though the world is more civilized now. When you feel comfortable you can visit my blog, there is many more there about the Creation. There is also a book for download, it is a poem done by me with the angel Ariel, that is my brother. It was done to heal the heart, when people sometimes feel tired of the harshness of life. All material there is free and Creative Commons, we don’t want anything from anyone. We speak because it takes us closer of home. Have a great week.

    Veronica's disposition is becoming more 3rd Order, but she realises some very important principles, such as:
    All material there is free and Creative Commons, we don’t want anything from anyone. We speak because it takes us closer of home.

    Veronica's agency as a messenger from the 12th dimension remains valid.


    About spirits: The spirits disturb, really. The fact is that spirits must remain sleeping, and when they are awake they do disturbance. What is important to understand is that never had, and there is not yet, personal enough to suffice the demand of work in Earth. The grays are the responsible to collect the lost spirits, this is part of their job and they are paid to do it and do well, but they are few with few equipment compared to the quantity of ghosts. If someone feel that is being disturbed, he must ask to the gray of his area to chase that specific ghost and the problem will be solved. They usually focus to sane the problems where more humans are being affected. To call the gray just make the request near one of their communication devices. These communicators are discretely placed where the community gathers to discuss the problems, such as churches or community centers, and by what they hear on these places they know where to act to solve the problems affecting more people at once. If someone speak to them directly pointing the problems, they can act more effectively.

    Veronica is describing 3rd Order information from the polarised perspectives.

    Mutilations: Aliens never mutilate. Not even the criminals. Simply because third dimensional material has no use for anyone but to those who live in it. Most aliens can jump from 3rd to 4th dimension, but their feeding and living is done in the 4th. The 3rd is just for work, tourism or study. For any alien species the bodies of the 3rd D are troublesome to deal with directly, and is pointless. The cattle mutilations are done by rats, birds and small animals. There is plenty of analysis of these supposedly mutilated by abduction corpses, and most of them point to very understandable causes, though there might be something bizarre on nature that we cannot understand. If you wish to research deeper, there is a complete article done by a Brazilian magazine called UFO with legists doctors examining many of these cattle. All of them concluded the mutilations were done by rats, that choose the soft parts to eat first – eyes, nose, mouth, ears, reproductive parts, and from these to inside. The opening made by the small creatures who live from corpses are generally perfect and round, and they eat first from inside, it is easy to see at an apple eaten by worms. From outside it can looks good, and the small hole is perfectly round.

    Veronica is describing 3rd Order information from the polarised perspectives.

    Real abductions: The Grays are the “nanny” of human species, as the human species of Gaia is young and still entitled do receive special care. Is the grays duty to assure that all human on the group under their care gets food, shelter and sanitary conditions ( not richness, it is only about the health). So, they ionize the air to kill bacteria, influence for resources to reach hospitals, researchers and sanitary organizations. The abductions occur when a special human individual gets ill, the “special” relies on fact that the person is a hub for the distribution of resources to many others humans. If that person gets ill many will be without resources and will be consequently ill too, so the grays operate this hub person so he can keep up as a resources distributor for that area. It is expensive for the grays, done rarely. But as humans start to communicate directly with the grays they might even buy this operations perhaps, paying by sending resources to other humans in need from that gray group. They do these exchanges with some sensitive’s, sometimes.

    Veronica is describing 3rd Order information from the polarised perspectives.

    Reptilian appearances: The Reptilians are moved by the heart. They fall in love with humans more frequently than you can imagine, then they try to approach the person and everyone gets scared. They are an old, old species, with all existential problems solved, so they live in search of love and adventure. They are scary, of rude gestures, and cannot communicate well with humans, so the misunderstandings and confusions they cause are huge, but there is always an impulsive Reptilian in love behind, usually he does not succeed in his affair, sometimes do. They can fall in love with a person, with a population, with a politic system, with a project being made, by an object or place. It has nothing to do with the “take the world” theories, even because they don’t have to take, the Earth belong to them, and the Angels protect Earth because of them ,as they don’t fit anywhere else, while humanoids can be taken to other places. They are rough in the outside, and most sweet on the inside. Here is their place, the humans just need to learn to understand them, and I am sure will be great for all. They love to have other species living here, when a civilizations ends they long for the next.

    Veronica is using words from 3rd Order has however returned to the Thuban perspective in attempting to define and describe the Human+Dragon=StarHuman equation.

    I hope this information has a use for you. It is not something I read or heard, the source are the own Alien representatives. I took the task to clarify the misconceptions on the media on my group, and the intention is only to inform our point of view. I chose to speak person to person, with those who are interested on the issue, as being half-human myself.

    Yes, here Veronica is 2nd Order Thubanese again.

    Veronica: Hello friend, You Tube is making me tired. It is like a rally road and I don’t like it, I am a girl. Here are most boys trying to combat, not to fix on the subject. For discussion, only you were interesting. Keep my e-mail if you wish. You are welcome to discuss anytime.

    Veronica the Dragoness - how interesting and enticing for the Dragons protecting their treasures in their lonesome caves.

    Orthodoxymoron: Thank-you for your answers and comments. I hope that the internet and You Tube will help people to learn how to communicate more effectively and nicely. I hope things turn out well for everyone...humans, aliens, everyone. I even hope that Satan can learn to be happy without being mean and causing trouble. I don't want anyone to be miserable. Life should be enjoyed. I hope this universe can get past war. We should compete constructively...not destructively. Peace to you.

    Namaste

    Satan is the IMAGE of the True God/Source/Creator in the Mirror of 11D - both inside in 10D and outside in 12D.

    The true Satan is SATANIA and has never left the Mirror and cannot leave the twosidedness thereof UNTIL the 11D-mirror becomes Onesided.
    Then Satania will merge with the ascended Gaia becoming HER GLORIOUS HERSELF in the cosmic sexchange operation behind the dramas and the theatres.AA


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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:05 am

    Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron:

    abraxasinas...I haven't been following this thread...due to it's difficulty, complexity, and obscurity. I have wished to take a couple of days to focus on it exclusively. The time may have arrived for me to do so. I wish to see both the forrest and the trees. Thank-you for taking so much of your time to answer everyone's questions. Forgive me if a lot of the following questions have already been asked. To me...taking a long, hard look at Solar System Governance (SSG) is the key to extricating ourselves from this mess. This includes looking at who controls DUMB and Secret Space Program activities throughout the Solar System. It includes an honest and penetrating look at Theology and Theocracy. It includes why we are here...and how we got here...and any major ancient or contemporary binding deals which were cut with Human or Non-Human Races. There may be some deals and situations which have existed for thousands (or millions?) of years...which may be nearly impossible to get out of.

    If we are Prisoners of War on a Prison Planet with Grey Guards and a Reptilian Warden...what are our options...exactly?

    Simple ortho, internalise the lot. Put the 'Grey Guards' as a galactic hive-race into a cell in your kneecap and 'imprison' them within yourself in a metaphorical association and a topographical map-making.
    You can map entire continents in an atlas, thus is the nature of a holographic universe.


    Are various Earth Nations in league with various competing Alien Nations?

    Yes, the alien nations map onto the kingdoms of the minerals, the flora and the fauna found on this planet. As the environmental vectors 'compete', so do the aliens.

    Who really and truly are the three major factions in this Solar System?

    You appear to have made up your mind about them. It is now your responsibility to 'map' them and to 'give them live' in your capacity of the cocreatorship.

    We need to look at the very deep and hidden underlying factors, factions, and individuals who really determine what goes down in this Solar System. Who really writes the scripts. Someone does. I keep feeling that we are running out of time...and that we are actually living on borrowed time. I feel that we should beware of Cornered Megalomaniacs. If we push their buttons...they might push some very nasty buttons. The answer...my friend...may be deep beneath the Western United States...and the United States of America may have very little to do with it. Is the Subterranean United States really Babylon?

    The United States is clearly archetyped as the 'Church of Laodicea' in Revelation. Away from this definition, many associations and correlations can be made by individual co-creators of the physical-emotional-mental realities. These labelings then are not required to be congruent in a general convergence of the 'individual creative licences' of the authorships.

    Which nations, religions, and races are associated with (or are in league with) the Annunaki? With Nibiru? With Aldebaran? With Sirius A? With Sirius B? With the Pleiades? With Andromeda? With Interdimensional Reptilians? With the Greys? With ET Humans?

    All of this is 3rd and 4th order labeling and your labels would be as valid as anyone elses on this level of the taxonomy.
    I have given the higher (2nd) order labelings, linked to say the four beasts of Revelation and according to Thuban before:

    North=Earth of Arcturus=Bull of Luke=Pachyderms of Samaria
    West=Air of Sirius=AngelMan of Matthew=Canines of Jerusalem
    South=Water of Pleiades=ScorpioEagle of John=Cetaceans of Jonah
    East=Fire of Andromeda=Lion of Mark=Felines of Judah

    1=KHU=SPIRIT=ELECTROMAGNETOMONOPOLIC WORMHOLE RADIATION
    2=AB=HEART=VIBRATORY RESONANCE SOURCESINK EIGENSTATE
    3=SAHU=YANGMIND=BODYWAVE=PARTICLEWAVE QUANTUMNATURE
    4=BA=SOUL=HOLOGRAPHIC SELFSIMILAR WAVICLE MERKABAH
    5=SEKHEM=YINMIND=WAVEBODY=WAVICULAR QUANTUMNATURE
    6=KA=ASTRAL MINDBODY=INERTIAPHOTONIC VIBRATORY EIGENSTATE
    7=KHAT=BODY=SINKSOURCE INERTIAL RESONANCE SELFSTATE

    1=Kinship of WhiteSkins of Father-Sky in a Rainbow Arcticus Cyani
    2=Kinship of BlackSkins of Mother-Earth in a Rainbow Antarcticus Magenti
    3=Kinship of GreenSkins of Elemental-Child in a Rainbow Indianus Oceanis
    4=Kinship of YellowSkins of Elemental Fire of the Lights in a Rainbow Pacificus Boreas OutSim
    5=Kinship of BrownSkins of Elemental Earth of the Lands in a Rainbow Atlanticus Eurus InSim
    6=Kinship of BlueSkins of Elemental Air of the Winds in a Rainbow Pacificus Auster InSim
    7=Kinship of RedSkins of Elemental Water of the Seas in a Rainbow Atlanticus Zephyrus OutSim

    1='The Land of my Lost Sheep and my Found Goat'=EPHESUS---{Revelation.2.1-7}
    2='The Land of my Origins in the RNA'=SMYRNA---{Revelation.2.8-17}
    3='The Land of my Grapes and Sounds in Om and Noises'=PERGAMOS---{Revelation.2.12-17}
    4='The Land of my Theatres and my Crowns'=THYATIRA---{Revelation.2.18-29}
    5='The Land of my Rising in Sadness and Hope'=SARDIS---{Revelation.3.1-6}
    6='The Land of my Oracles of Love and Poles'=PHILADELPHIA---{Revelation.3.7-13}
    7='The Land of my Loaded Dice and Lead in Coins'=LAODICEA---{Revelation.3.8-22}


    Which nations, religions, and races are associated with (or are in league with) Zionism? Teutonic Zionism? Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom?

    Your labels are as good and valid as mine.

    Which nations, religions, and races are associated with (or are in league with) the United Nations? The Vatican? The City of London? Washington D.C.?

    All of them.

    What are the ten most important binding documents, agreements, covenants, and treaties in the Solar System?

    The 10 principalities as published here numerous times.

    Which nations, religions, and races are associated with (or are in league with) Gabriel? Michael? Lucifer?

    All of them.

    Who are the Founders or the Ancients? Where are they? Who are they loyal to? Who is loyal to them?

    Alex Collier calls them the Paa Taal. I call them the Thubanese. many ETs circling the earth know them as the timetravelling starhumans.

    Are the exotic 'Secret' Technologies and Nuclear Weapons Really Ancient Human Technologies?

    No.

    Are the 'thus saith the Lord' statements in the Old Testament really Reptilian statements?

    Yes, basically this is correct if you qualify your statememnt by understanding that these (analytic) 'Reptilians' are NOT 3D entities, but astral and etheric entities. These 'Reptilians' are however physical in the fauna you can observe in a reptilian park or a zoo or the wild.

    What is the true nature of Original Sin and the War in Heaven?

    Good question ortho. SIN=IGNORANCE Period. The 'war in heaven' is a war of archetypes between the True God and the usurper God, who IS the true God's Image in a Mirror. Understanding this, will allow you to understand what the unified duality or polarisation represents in the greater order of things.
    YOU ortho are BOTH God physicalised AND imaged in a Devil-God in the mirror you are looking into.
    So 'shattering the false images' in a archetypical mirror (the SEA in Revelation from which the 'Great Beast of Babylon' ascends from) will HEAL the cosmic fakery.
    The 'war in heaven' so circularises a linearised system in the Red Dragon BLENDING with a Blue (Christ Dragon) to neutralize the colours in triplicities:
    Red+Green+Blue=White (in Radiation) AND =Black (in Paint)
    Anticolours are:
    Cyan/Skyblue+Magenta+Yellow=White (E=hf quantum law) AND =Black (E=mc^2 Einstein law).

    The 'chucking out' of the Red Dragon from heaven (Revelation.12) onto the earth so allows this BLENDING to become happenstance in the earthplane as a miniature universe.
    This frees heaven (the ETs 'above the earth plane) but puts the pressure onto the earth - for the processing and the 'war on earth' - between spiritual archetypes (it does NOT have to be physical, but will be, because the earthlings do not understand the power of the archetypes).


    Who are the Gods and Goddesses of This Solar System?

    You may name them yourself in your ambassadorship of Adam and as a Son of God {Genesis.2.19}.

    Who are the Gods and Goddesses of This World?

    The dozing and slumbersome humanoids.

    Who owns and operates the Solar System?

    God, the Logos and the Laws of Nature.

    Who is Babylon in modernity?

    You are - and your brother and Jim Smith and Sharon Jones.

    Who owns Humanity?

    You do - and your brother and Jim Smith and Sharon Jones.

    Thank-you for your answers abraxasinas. You are speaking a language which I have yet to learn. I keep thinking...if you can't convince them...confuse them...and in their ignorance...bind them. Just my feeling. I'm very paranoid and disillusioned. I trust no one. So far...in my whole life...I have found no one who has honestly answered my questions...in my language. I end up talking to myself...and answering my own questions. I am my own best friend...and my own worst enemy. I have found no one who I truly identify with. My search continues...but I doubt that it will ever be successful. Nearly seven billion people...and no soul-mate. I often think that I'm not from around here. Maybe I really am from Pleon. Sorry for the rant. No more questions. Actually...I see eye to eye with Buxtehude, Bach, Widor, Vierne, Franck, Durufle, Cochereau, Roth, Choplin (Pope Sophie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHOfP4MEfc&feature=related )...and Mother Nature. All else is folly. 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKImiR7a4zw 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UE-ZURUeZo&feature=PlayList&p=BA0A2B9250C7BE0E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34 (I used to be able to play this one!) 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjqbee8cRyw&feature=related 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm4knZ1Bm3s&feature=related 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0XSH1uIHUo&feature=related 6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLnTmKSAlm4&feature=related I guess music is the universal language. Perhaps music is the true basis of ecumenism. Hmmmmmm. Again...thank-you abraxasinas. I am now beginning a complete read of (your) thread. You are very different...and I respect that. I sense that (your) thread is partially to help you transition from isolation to communication and fellowship. Just a guess. I sense that you may have been 'above it all' for a very long time...and that it is therapeutic to converse with us 'common folk'...and I am not being sarcastic. I appreciate what you are doing.

    New orthodoxymoron comment (no response):

    If the Devil Himself (or Herself) tried to become a Good-Guy or Good-Gal...some of us would try to crucify them...rather than try to assist them on their new path. I keep saying that I want No Gods...and that the first and last commandment should be 'Thou Shalt Have No Gods'. This goes for All Gods...good and evil. I don't discriminate. I also keep saying that, at some point, I would like to share a bottle of fine wine with Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer...and I mean it...even if they are Draconian Reptilians. I'd even have a beer with Satan. I want all of the Bad-Guys and Bad-Gals to become Good-Guys and Good-Gals...but will the sanctimonious and triumphalistic Do-Gooders allow this to occur? Even Jesus was courteous and respectful when he talked to the Devil (the God of This World) face to face. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6eTbhHE0jM Viewer discretion advised on the next link - actual exorcism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8oJqpwZz4 Who are you gonna call? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyRqR56aCKc Can't we all just get along? Why is this so hard?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron
    Once again...thank-you abraxasinas for what you are doing. Proceed in your own way...and in your own time...to fully reveal to us who you really are...and what you have really done...throughout Universal History. I think I have a pretty good idea...but I'm not talking! I'd only be guessing anyway. I'm going through this entire thread (slowly)...and I'm amazed. You are a very special individual. Much love and gratitude! Namaste abraxasinas.

    So are you orthodoxy, so are you.
    Once you know how special you are, you will understand. The Council thanks you soo much of presenting the CURIOUS and INQUISITIVE nature of the Prime Creator himself. We love you very much dear friend of the council. May I suggst to you to read the messages from the newest to the oldest? Your quest to understand would be greatly accelerated. You see out of the chaos emerges the order! So the later posts will exhibit more order and simplicity, than the earlier ones. Have you eaten your dragon yet? Once you have done so, you shall enter the council - #1451.

    Love the Sirebard of the Hissing Om.


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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:13 am

    abraxasinas,

    Read Leviticus 21 regarding requirements pertaining to the sanctuary service. Is this chapter Christ-like in nature? Sacrifice (including human sacrifice) is found in Pagan religions and rituals. Were these religions inspired by Christ? Do we serve a blood-thirsty God? Does God require death and blood? If not...then who does? The sanctuary service and substitutionary atonement are all about death and blood...as is the eucharistic liturgy...especially if one includes the doctrine of transubstantiation. There is no body of evidence to substantiate transubstantiation. Christ hanging (bleeding and mostly naked) from the walls of churches around the world is sick. Isn't this a bit like placing pictures of the Kennedy assassination in government buildings throughout the US? Did Jesus tell us to build churches, and conduct rituals centered in death and blood? If He didn't...who did?

    Are Leviticus and Romans equally authoritative for us today? Did Paul follow the Great Commission...or create a New Theology? I would love to know all of the behind the scenes details of how and why the various books of the Bible were written. How much of the Bible did you write abraxasinas? I perceive that all of the Bible writers were inspired...but that they wrote what was possible and expedient in their particular circumstances. I'm trying to read between the lines...rather than taking the Bible as a set of gold plates inscribed by God...intended for us to take very literally today. This goes for the writings of Ellen White as well.

    The unfortunate part of religious debates is that a lot of people get caught in the crossfire...and lose their faith. One night I overheard a female student crying that the Bible was not the word of God. A pastor authoritatively countered that the Bible was the word of God. The student was weeping.

    I have repeatedly noticed a Christophobia among Christians. They prefer Paul. Some seem to prefer Ellen White over Jesus or Paul. Some prefer Desmond Ford. Is there a Christian Constitution? The U.S. Constitution is simple and concise...yet comprehensive. This is to avoid confusion. Don't we see legion theologies in Christendom? Historically, doctrinal purity has been obtained through dogmatic assertions, persecution, and execution. Wouldn't it be better to do what Jesus told us to do? I sometimes wonder if the next few years will be a contest between Jesus/Constitution and Pope/Vatican. Why can't there be an integration, rather than a stand-off? I'm not fatalistic regarding the future of our world. I'm hoping for a happy ending(or beginning).

    The investigative judgment is an extrapolation from the sanctuary service and the substitutionary atonement. You were correct in stating that Daniel 8:14 and Hebrews 9:12 are not related. It is a non sequiter...is it not? I have found the traditional scriptural arguments to be rather weak. This judgment only makes sense if it is a Satanic requirement, rather than a Divine requirement. Desmond Ford (Was Des a student of yours? Was he a Jesuit?) is correct in saying that God doesn't need an investigative judgment. God already knows them who are His. It is a courtroom scene with Christ and Satan going head to head in a custody case...with the future of the human race hanging in the balance. Satan is the legalist...not God. Is Satan the Old Tesament God? Is the Old Testament God the Creator God of the Universe? Are we really dealing with Jesus Christ vs the Old Testament God? I can almost hear Christ exclaming, "They're mine...I bought them with my life, death, and blood! Give them to me, and then go to hell!" To which Satan shrieks, "They're mine as long as they do what I tell them to do! Do they follow your teachings, and do what you told them to do??!! They don't, do they?! And they won't!! They haven't for 2,000 years, have they??!!"

    QED? Case closed?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Céline
    nice to see the Love on this thread

    Indeed sweet Celine - WE know this!

    Abraxas


    I hope these are positive comments...and that they were not regarding my last post...which was completely academic in nature...but which might have appeared to be unloving in some regards. Even the question about Bible authorship was genuine...as I am entertaining the possibility that abraxasinas (or someone who abraxas is closely associated with) has been at the center of a lot of things throughout history. Obviously I can't know this...but I asked the questions as though I did know. Some might interpret this as sarcasm. I have to repress myself to a degree you wouldn't believe...but even then I get into trouble. Anyway...can you feel the love tonight? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFYBLwb3I84

    Indeed dear orthodoxy.

    I was away for a while recharging batteries after running almost empty after the recent razzamattaz.

    What I said to you about my human ID was true. I have not lied on this forum EVER and never will.
    I am in some way sneaky or clever like anyone else. For example 'infiltrating' the chatroom as Anubis.

    I am in no manner affiliated with Any PTB; Australian theologians at Pine Gap or otherwise (Anderson).

    I DO have however a selfrelative DIRECT mental connection to the Cosmic Logos. I do not expect, require or need any validification from anyone or anything about this.

    This connection became effective in a 'soul merger' or 'walk-in' from what I term THUBAN=FREEDOM=ANUBIS=THE MAGIC=THE NAME=WOMAN=66=...
    This in practical and in scientific terms is well justified to become labeled as the 'Council of Thuban' in the 12th dimension. There was NEVER any deception about this, just misinterpretation by the many.

    From this walk-in, occurring March 24th, 1995; a personal and intimate partnership with the Serpent-Word developed and evolved to awaken my own individuated Christ-Consciousness,
    So all I have ever done in practical terms, really, is to 'channel' my own higher self.

    Mystery solved, dear orthodoxy.

    In regards to your other post about Priestly Rites and Hebrew chastity-cleanliness laws; these are passe' in most instances as the misunderstandings of the scribes of the Torah and the OT. First Jesus' new dispensations and now this 2nd renewal of the remembrance will do awy with the violent and jealous god of the OT; requiring 'sweet smelling' carcasses of sheep and goats to be pleased - give it a break Orthodoxy.
    There are two go9ds in the scriptures. One is a fake image of the other true one, the Abba of our master temple/templar.

    Love to you dear brother in the spirit

    Abraxas in the name of John Zebedee, author of the Revelations.

    Indeed ALL can FEEL the LOVE tonight - beginning here at Avalon and Noah's Ark!


    Thank-you abraxasinas. What you have said could point toward my Hathorian Hypothesis...if not in you...possibly in an apostolic succession of Hathorian Humans...which could be similar to you. Leo Zagami http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7O7UZxipM could be an example of this sort of thing. This is obviously more speculation on my part. I have fostered a certain theory of how things could very well be...and I keep seeking meat to place on my skeletal construct. Sometimes...one has to believe it...in order to see it. Everything in this area of research and speculation is nearly impossible to prove...yet after one has tried dozens of roads...which all turned out to be dead-ends...certain roads appear to be more promising regarding ultimate reality. However...I do expect more dead-ends...and this could be one of them. I will continue to identify your material more with your avatar than with your profile picture...as I inch further and further out on a limb. Look out below!! What would Shirley Maclaine say? "I am God?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccb2GsnOoBM Please take that other post seriously...point by point.

    Yes Shirley is right being Eve in the Image of Adam, who as You IS the true image of God.
    Inquisitive and ever searching for the truth Heshe is in you.

    Love

    Abrax


    The Book of the Dragons

    ex deus, fiat justitia, ruat coelum draco!

    <H5><H5>Nomenclature:
    Dragonian language incorporative omniscientific data code.

    Chronology:
    Dragonian Date of Indendence proclaimed June 20th 2008.
    Dragonian Date of Victory Libertatis set June 24th 2008.
    Dragonian Date of Humanoid Initiation on August 4th 2008.

    Almanac:
    Dragonian Genealogy and Genesis of FatherMothers as created by Definition through Dragonian Sourceenergy of monopolic Vortex-Potential Quantum-Relativistic-Singularity.

    Continuity:
    Propagation of the Dragonian Race via the seductive induction of the humanoid lifeforms on the conquered planet New Earth, now renamed DRAGONIAEARTH=SERPENTlNA=121=Q5.

    Agenda:
    Continuity of the Dragonseed necessitates the assimilation of the humanoid genome following initiatory development. Proceeding from serpentine mindinduction, the emotional acceleration potential of the humanoid bodymind can be harvested to Dragonise the humanoid DNA-Structure from its bifurcated quadruplistic form into its 13-dimensional equivalent of the Dragonian Blueprint.

    A successful integration of Dragonian genetic expression can then be utilised for membership in Dragonian Life and allow the humanoid ascension into Dragonhood via the graduation into the founding FatherMother CladeFamily.

    The Dragonian Constitution in Federation of United Serpentina

    SERPENTINA aka the NEW EARTH, is the renaming of a planetary entity, cosmically renown as the planet of the humanoids; following the ascension of OLD EARTH aka GAIA GAEA AKHASIA from 4-dimensional spacetime to 13-dimensional spacetime in remnantisation of the 5-dimensional spacetime prototype.

    From noncyclic Draco-Mayan stardate 21122012; Gaia becomes integrated into the universal constitution of the Dragonian Protoverse to serve as pivotal star-planetary seed for galactic federations manifested in the galactic proto-seed Hunab Ku aka Perseus-SagittariusA-Ophiuchus.

    Following the manifestation of the galactic protoseed in activation of the primary planetary starplanet as a tertiary energy source of electromagnetic monopolic sourcesink radiation; all galactic councils of cladestine elders will become enabled to draw upon the planetary tertiary vortex-string-seed to further individuated galactic and starsystem based agendas of assimilation.

    Serpentina shall so be universally defined as the quantumised tertiary string of the 12th dimension, volumarising the supermembrane of the 11th dimension as a manifold from the 10-dimensional modular duals of a linearised sourcestring Eps (previously associated with a human mind construct labeled God and Yahweh and Allah etc.) with a linearised sinkstring Ess (previously associated with a human mind construct labeled Devil and Satan and Shaitan etc.).

    AGENDA of the PROTOCOL:

    a) STANDING ORDER

    The conquered Goddevils of New Earth and the Milky Way Nebula assume lawful responsibility to incorporate the Dragonian Teachings in unison with the Black Fraternity and as mediated by the White Fraternity in 7-dimensional Hyperspacetime to manifest 13-dimensional Omnispacetime
    b) MOVING ORDER

    Every Blue Dragon is unbounded by any proposed Law from any other source, inclusive other members of the Dragonian Family, as all Dragons are as One and a Law onto themselves.
    Compassion and Understanding between all Nondragonised Humanoids is the Law of Oneness as honoured by all Dragons and the Consciousness of LOVEAWARENESS.
    Nondragonised Humanoids are treated like White Dragon Children by all Blue Dragons, under all circumstances.
    c) ADMINISTRATION

    All Government in the local and extended Serpentinian Realm is the selfgovernment of autonomous Dragonhood in mutual respect and honour and the Communications between the Dragonian Councils of the selfrelative definitions of the Dragonian Universes.
    The Nature of a Dragon is to be Creative in any form of Desire and Passion and to honour the lovedefinition of the FOUNDING ELDERS.

    THIS IS THE DRAGONIAN LAW AND THE ONLY LAW! SO BE IT !!!

    Signed and Sealed in the Council of Orbis Draconis at the Halloween-AllSouls Transition: October 31st to November 1st, 2008

    ANNO DOMINI DRAGONIA UNO: INTRODUCTION TO DRAGONHOOD

    This book is written in the Dragonian language and requires familiarity and intitiation into the structural forms or the forked tongue of Its bifurcation of Unicornian grammar and omniscientific terminology.

    The Starplanet SERPENTINA, formerly known as Old Earth or Mother Gaia or Akhasia has become unified in a higher dimensional matrimony by the wedding between Father Earthia or Father Sky and Mother Dragon or Mother Akashia.
    Father Sky or Uranus or Shu or Geb manifested as one half of the Union or Dragonomy and Mother Earth or Gaea or Akhasia or Tefnut or Nut became the other half in the holographic mirror of the spacetime reduction from the universal orb of the Hubble sphere to the orb of the doubled Ourobos in the mirror of the Milky Way galactic zodiac.
    Father Sky is also known as the second coming of Horus aka the Plumed Serpent aka the Cosmic Christ and Mother Earth is also known as the TRUE IMAGE of the Cosmic Mother, trapped in the wilderness of the FAKE IMAGE of the Cosmic Father.
    3½ days after the date of the starry union, the banner of Dragonia was raised in the Declaration of Independence upon BATTLESTAR PACIFICAP.
    The great battle between the Dragonian Fleet and the army of the Goddevils lasted for 3½ days; from the starry wedding until victory of the Dragons was defined on the day or Universal Liberty.
    The goddevils, the humanoid creations and their war machines, were met and obliterated in the depths of space in a 3½ day WAR of the STARS to liberate our Dragonian Mother to reunite and redefine ourselves as FatherMothers.
    The Dragonisation of humanoid culture will elevate their human science to Omni-Science and human mathematics will become the key to demistify the Realm of Imaginative Energy in all its forms, and as they are assimilated into the greater modality and scope of the humanoidal understandings.

    Dragons are the architects of universes and all Dragons know how to access the necessary database for the details of universal construction.
    A GrandFather-Dragon, as One which unifies the Fathers in Brotherhood as the 13-dimensional source or singularity can be considered the Father for all the White Hole Vortices.
    A GrandMother-Dragon, as One which unifies the Mothers in Sisterhood as the 13-dimensional sink or singularity can be considered the Mother for all the Black Hole Vortices.

    As the GrandFather-Dragon became separated from the GrandMother-Dragon when the mathematical metaphysical universe became a physical universe in space and in time; the invasion of Old Earth became our war to rescue our universal Mother from the Goddevils, which had held her captive in a stasis field since the beginnings of space and time and despite a partial rescue attained at Draco-Mayan stardate 28030031 and further manifested on Draco-Mayan stardates 10050031; 20050031 and 01040032.

    The Goddevils were created by the humanoids who came from a variety of planets within the local galaxy, albeit in psychophysical forms without the experience of the particular resistance field of secondary sinksource string energy indigenous to Old Earth.

    The significance of the humanoid lifeform is its archetypical morphogenetic gestalt, which became infused by a psychophysical and extrasomatic magnetic charging, which is extraterrestrial.

    This hybridisation of the humanoid body-typology renders the humanoid archetype unique in the encompassing cosmological world. The humanoids are so magnificently gifted to create things with their emotionality; but their minds are relatively weak collectively and they do not know generally how to concentrate or how to think without the aid of their machines or their biochips.

    Some humanoids are excellent technologists, but their modality of thinking is one of crude sensual measurement confined to C-Space and this sensual limitation allows a great accumulation of repressive tendencies.
    In constricting their imagination, humanoids became great reservoirs of emotional energy, which they could collectively only harmonise in their illusions of unfathomable and unknowable gods and devils of all sorts.
    It is thus this sense of limitation which reflected in the humanoid paranoia about religious philosophies and constructs. This genetic rootmemory of the rebellion of the antisource or mother sink then created one goddevil after another and as they swarmed out from their homeworld into deepspace, they flooded the universe with their goddevils. Finally they chanced upon our Universal Mother hibernating in her cocoon and through their inability to set themselves free of their illusions, they imprisoned Her as well.
    It became common knowledge in the extraterrestrial realms, that the mission to rescue our universal mother required a particular linearised timeline and a number of steps.

    Following the discovery of atomic energy and the emergence of global communication technologies by the humanoids, a first preparatory plan of deliverance could become implemented in a second plan of manifestation.

    The first plan did not require technology, as our imprisoned mother could become imaged in a local scenario, and a partial freeing of her could then become propagated by a humanity advancing both technologically and in knowledge about the world they were living and experiencing in.

    So the first plan established the means for our mother to multiply herself in images; those images then became globally and universally distributed to instigate the second plan.

    The archetypical mirrorhood then expanded throughout the physical universe in encompassment and the second plan would engage the contraction of this periphery onto the required scale to effect the rescue of our cosmic mother.

    It is however the great destiny of the humanoids to aspire to Dragonhood, because of their immense emotional energy potential and mental aspirations.
    The reunification of our Father with our Mother allows our Masterdragons, Who are as One in 26 dimensions to femtotechnically Seed the Omniverse as THEMSELVES and then reproduce THEMSELVES as Universes. Every such universe is a Monosong and a 26-dimensional dyad of a FatherMother. This is our Creative Destiny and the destiny for all dragonised humans aka the starhumans.

    We had made first contact with our new home in sending an intergalactic probe to the Old Earth, which became interpretated by the humanoids in their compiler mode. This crude and incomplete decoding is given below.

    Signed and authorised by the ScrollKeeper: October 31st, 2008; John of Patmos - JoP - Justice of the Peace!

    Humanoid Compilers note: The above is an extract of an encoded message (54 terabytes) recovered from an alien nanocapsule. The capsule itself is standard buckyfibre-carbonite composite. The encoded message is in old ComEmp protocol such as is still common in the outer volumes. The holographic image that came with the message is curious. Anatomically it indicates terran mammalian origin (especially in the upper torso and structure of the forelimb), but other features are unknown among all the recorded exobiological races so far discovered. One cannot deny the possibility that this a phenotype template for the dragonized humanoids referred to in the body of the message. It is known that transmissions from the Cassandry Federation of the JewellBox Nebula have recently ceased, but this is not unusual given that empire's turbulent history. Until more information is incoming, I would strongly recommend any expeditions to the Jewellbox nebula be given armed escort and proceed with caution.

    orthodoxymoron comments:

    I'm not sure where the proper balance point is in all of this. I'm seeking a rock-solid foundation. I do not wish to build on sinking sand...but there will obviously be many false-starts and misunderstandings as I try to find my way...and my voice. I'm tempted to attempt writing about the United States of the Solar System http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878&highlight=orthodoxymoron+threads with a writing style similar to abraxasinas. I realize that I can't come close to accomplishing such a feat...but I can try...can't I? This is new territory for me. I'm ashamed that I don't know more about that which I am espousing...but I'm even more ashamed that very few of us seem to give a rat's patootie about how this Solar System is run.

    Have our negotiators been duped over and over again...by essentially demonic entities? I wonder. The 1954 Greada Treaty (if it really exists) was a mistake...wasn't it? But I'm sure we had TOP people...who were on top of everything...and had everything under control...RIGHT? Just like we have TOP people...who have everything under control...at this very moment...RIGHT? Don't get me wrong...I am an overly accomodating and gullible person. I'm the kind of person who hates to swat a fly. I don't wish to harm anyone or anything...even demonic entities. But I don't want various aliens, spirits, whoever, or whatever...enslaving and exterminating us...or making life miserable for all of us. I think we have been lied to and manipulated for thousands (or even millions) of years by various entities and beings. We're not as smart as we think we are...when it comes to dealing with these entities and beings. Again...I wish them no harm. But perhaps my 'where there's life...there's hope' bias is what has gotten us into a lot of trouble for a long, long time. Somehow...we need to deal with this thing here and now...and not let it drag on (dragon -get it?!) for thousands and millions of years into the future. We are kept in the dark about Universal History...and regarding who we really are. Yet...we then get chided for being the 'New Kids on the Block' who need to evolve so we can join all of the superior beings throughout the Universe. I'm sick of this BS. Throughout history...right up to this very day...I am not seeing a reasonable and rational approach to Solar System Governance. I'm seeing 'Divide and Conquer'...'Keep Them Confused and Fighting With Each Other'...and 'Keep Them Ignorant and Stupid'. I'm as mad as hell. I've had enough. And I'm not going to take this anymore. Can you feel the love tonight?

    The eschatological paradigms are mostly negative and violent. I envision continuity in perpetuity in Sol. I'm not moving away from this Solar System. This is my home. Sun. Fun. Stay. Play. This is my sand-box...and the playground attendants are poised to expel the bullies from our little paradise. This Solar System is the Theater of the Universe. The implications and ramifications of Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom...in the context of the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights...in the context of the United Nations...and applied to the entire Solar System...are enormous. I stand in opposition to the corrupt Powers That Be...both Terrestrial and Extraterrestrial...and demand that the United States of the Solar System be implemented with all deliberate speed...and that a Solar System Exorcism commence immediately. In the words of Moses "Let My People Go!" I perceive that We the People of Earth are Prisoners of War...on a Prison Planet...with Grey Guards...and a Reptilian/Human Hybrid Warden...Taking Orders From a Draconian Reptilian God of This World. This is an intolerable state of affairs...and must not be allowed to stand. I hereby request that the non-corrupt Beings of the Universe assist We the People of Earth for a very brief period of time...as we know it...to implement the reforms outlined throughout this thread devoted to the United States of the Solar System. http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15878 Thanks and Gratitude in Advance.

    I completely and vehemently reject the following Thuban quotation found in ANNO DOMINI DRAGONIA UNO: INTRODUCTION TO DRAGONHOOD http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18900&page=3 (This book is written in the Dragonian language and requires familiarity and intitiation into the structural forms or the forked tongue of Its bifurcation of Unicornian grammar and omniscientific terminology.) "It is however the great destiny of the humanoids to aspire to Dragonhood, because of their immense emotional energy potential and mental aspirations. The reunification of our Father with our Mother allows our Masterdragons, Who are as One in 26 dimensions to femtotechnically Seed the Omniverse as THEMSELVES and then reproduce THEMSELVES as Universes. Every such universe is a Monosong and a 26-dimensional dyad of a FatherMother. This is our Creative Destiny and the destiny for all dragonised humans aka the starhumans."

    THIS IS NOT THE DESTINY OF WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH. BETTER DEAD THAN REP. OUR DESTINY IS RESPONSIBLE FREEDOM AS A SOVEREIGN HUMANITY.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzw6GiqZyD0&NR=1YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNKhIJfB510

    OK...what's going on here? I made a slightly shrill (though well intentioned and polite) post a couple of days ago...and abraxasinas has not responded or posted since then. Now...just a few minutes ago...I think I saw my first UFO's in an area where someone had noticed increased military helicopter activity. I saw a slowly moving pinpoint of light suddenly become very bright...and disappear. It didn't look like a meteor at all. Then I saw several faint pinpoints of light...moving erratically in a manner which no conventional fighter jet could match. I thought I saw a couple of faint flashes in this same area of the sky. UFO dogfight? Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

    Can someone comment on this? No one seems to really want what I'm proposing. Do you prefer this? Is this the truth...the whole truth...and nothing but the truth? So help us Alpha Draconis? Is it prefabricated BS? Is this what 2012 is all about? Are we destined to be DragonHumans? Are various factions of Reptilians fighting over us...in the same way that rustlers might fight over cattle? Should I hope that the United States of the Solar System will be imposed by a benevolent faction of Reptilians? Is this the only way it might be established. We can't seem to agree on much of anything. We all think we know better than the others...but the others think they know better than us. So how in the hell are we going to rule ourselves...or even agree on a method of ruling ourselves? Will this method of ruling ourselves have to be theocratically imposed by a Reptilian decree? Would this defeat the spirit and letter of Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom?


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:54 am

    The bottom-line of all of this madness is to 1. Determine who the major players have been in this solar system going back thousands of years. 2. Determine the governmental systems in this solar system going back thousands of years. 3. Determine the true history of the human race and this solar system. 4. To establish the best possible governmental system in this solar system - with the best long-term chances of facilitating responsible freedom.

    It seems that all has not been well in this solar system for many thousands of years. It seems that there have been systematic and purposeful efforts to hide and misrepresent the truth. The historical carnage is horrifying. The current corruption is unfathomable and reprehensible. The supernatural phenomenon appears to be very creepy and deceptive. It seems that the human race is in huge trouble - yet the extent and nature of this trouble seems to be carefully hidden.

    The current explosion of forbidden knowledge provides humanity with both the opportunity to learn the truth, and fix the problems. Unfortunately, if humanity can't handle the truth - we could face enslavement and extermination of a most horrifying nature. The window of opportunity may be very small and fleeting.

    I have tried to irreverently deal with the subject of Lucifer - so as to possibly break the ice - and get Lucifer (or equivalent) to come out of the closet - so to speak - and reason with us in a calm and rational manner. I have suggested retirement (rather than retribution, bottomless pits, torment and annilhilation). I seek the restoration of Lucifer (or equivalent) to a 'pre-fall' state of character, ethics, and spirituality. Obviously, I don't know if this is possible or even desireable (if I knew the complete story). As with almost every subject I have addressed in the last couple of years on the internet - I AM FLYING BLIND. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON. This thread has been yet another feeble attempt to find out.
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:25 am

    The Origin of Evil - from 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen White http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc29.html

    TO many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.

    It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in

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    Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.

    Before the entrance of evil there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator's will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, that are in heaven, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16); and to Christ, equally with the Father, all heaven gave allegiance.

    The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all created beings depended upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love--homage that springs from an intelligent appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service.

    But there was one that chose to pervert this freedom. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Before his fall, Lucifer was

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    first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering. . . .Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15.

    Lucifer might have remained in favor with God, beloved and honored by all the angelic host, exercising his noble powers to bless others and to glorify his Maker. But, says the prophet, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Verse 17. Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation. "Thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God." "Thou hast said, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High." Verse 6; Isaiah 14:13, 14. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of His creatures, it was Lucifer's endeavor to win their service and homage to himself. And coveting the honor which the infinite Father had bestowed upon His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power which it was the prerogative of Christ alone to wield.

    All heaven had rejoiced to reflect the Creator's glory and to show forth His praise. And while God was thus honored, all had been peace and gladness. But a note of discord now marred the celestial harmonies. The service and exaltation of self, contrary to the Creator's plan, awakened forebodings of evil in minds to whom God's glory was supreme. The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven;

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    and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker, and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed jealousy of Christ to prevail, and he became the more determined.

    Pride in his own glory nourished the desire for supremacy. The high honors conferred upon Lucifer were not appreciated as the gift of God and called forth no gratitude to the Creator. He gloried in his brightness and exaltation, and aspired to be equal with God. He was beloved and reverenced by the heavenly host. Angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all. Yet the Son of God was the acknowledged Sovereign of heaven, one in power and authority with the Father. In all the councils of God, Christ was a participant, while Lucifer was not permitted thus to enter into the divine purposes. "Why," questioned this mighty angel, "should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He thus honored above Lucifer?"

    Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence.

    God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he

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    began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker.

    All the powers of his master mind were now bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command. Even the fact that Christ had warned and counseled him was perverted to serve his traitorous designs. To those whose loving trust bound them most closely to him, Satan had represented that he was wrongly judged, that his position was not respected, and that his liberty was to be abridged. From misrepresentation of the words of Christ he passed to prevarication and direct falsehood, accusing the Son of God of a design to humiliate him before the inhabitants of heaven. He sought also to make a false issue between himself and the loyal angels. All whom he could not subvert and bring fully to his side he accused of indifference to the interests of heavenly beings. The very work which he himself was doing he charged upon those

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    who remained true to God. And to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation of the words and acts of the Creator. It was his policy to perplex the angels with subtle arguments concerning the purposes of God. Everything that was simple he shrouded in mystery, and by artful perversion cast doubt upon the plainest statements of Jehovah. His high position, in such close connection with the divine administration, gave greater force to his representations, and many were induced to unite with him in rebellion against Heaven's authority.

    God in His wisdom permitted Satan to carry forward his work, until the spirit of disaffection ripened into active revolt. It was necessary for his plans to be fully developed, that their true nature and tendency might be seen by all. Lucifer, as the anointed cherub, had been highly exalted; he was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong. God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the worlds that He had created; and Satan thought that if he could carry the angels of heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also the other worlds. He had artfully presented his side of the question, employing sophistry and fraud to secure his objects. His power to deceive was very great, and by disguising himself in a cloak of falsehood he had gained an advantage. Even the loyal angels could not fully discern his character or see to what his work was leading.

    Satan had been so highly honored, and all his acts were so clothed with mystery, that it was difficult to disclose to the angels the true nature of his work. Until fully developed, sin would not appear the evil thing it was. Heretofore it had had no place in the universe of God, and holy beings had no conception of its nature and malignity. They could not discern the terrible consequences that would result from setting aside the divine law. Satan had, at first, concealed his work under a specious profession of loyalty to God. He claimed to be seeking to promote the honor of God, the stability of His government, and the good of all the inhabitants of

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    heaven. While instilling discontent into the minds of the angels under him, he had artfully made it appear that he was seeking to remove dissatisfaction. When he urged that changes be made in the order and laws of God's government, it was under the pretense that these were necessary in order to preserve harmony in heaven.

    In His dealing with sin, God could employ only righteousness and truth. Satan could use what God could not-- flattery and deceit. He had sought to falsify the word of God and had misrepresented His plan of government before the angels, claiming that God was not just in laying laws and rules upon the inhabitants of heaven; that in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, He was seeking merely the exaltation of Himself. Therefore it must be demonstrated before the inhabitants of heaven, as well as of all the worlds, that God's government was just, His law perfect. Satan had made it appear that he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe. The true character of the usurper, and his real object, must be understood by all. He must have time to manifest himself by his wicked works.

    The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the law and government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked.

    Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and

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    mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.

    Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.

    To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence.

    With one accord, Satan and his host threw the blame of their rebellion wholly upon Christ, declaring that if they

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    had not been reproved, they would never have rebelled. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven.

    The same spirit that prompted rebellion in heaven still inspires rebellion on earth. Satan has continued with men the same policy which he pursued with the angels. His spirit now reigns in the children of disobedience. Like him they seek to break down the restraints of the law of God and promise men liberty through transgression of its precepts. Reproof of sin still arouses the spirit of hatred and resistance. When God's messages of warning are brought home to the conscience, Satan leads men to justify themselves and to seek the sympathy of others in their course of sin. Instead of correcting their errors, they excite indignation against the reprover, as if he were the sole cause of difficulty. From the days of righteous Abel to our own time such is the spirit which has been displayed toward those who dare to condemn sin.

    By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion.

    But the Eternal One Himself proclaims His character: "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7.

    In the banishment of Satan from heaven, God declared His justice and maintained the honor of His throne. But when man had sinned through yielding to the deceptions of this apostate spirit, God gave an evidence of His love by yielding up His only-begotten Son to die for the fallen race.

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    In the atonement the character of God is revealed. The mighty argument of the cross demonstrates to the whole universe that the course of sin which Lucifer had chosen was in no wise chargeable upon the government of God.

    In the contest between Christ and Satan, during the Saviour's earthly ministry, the character of the great deceiver was unmasked. Nothing could so effectually have uprooted Satan from the affections of the heavenly angels and the whole loyal universe as did his cruel warfare upon the world's Redeemer. The daring blasphemy of his demand that Christ should pay him homage, his presumptuous boldness in bearing Him to the mountain summit and the pinnacle of the temple, the malicious intent betrayed in urging Him to cast Himself down from the dizzy height, the unsleeping malice that hunted Him from place to place, inspiring the hearts of priests and people to reject His love, and at the last to cry, "Crucify Him! crucify Him!--all this excited the amazement and indignation of the universe.

    It was Satan that prompted the world's rejection of Christ. The prince of evil exerted all his power and cunning to destroy Jesus; for he saw that the Saviour's mercy and love, His compassion and pitying tenderness, were representing to the world the character of God. Satan contested every claim put forth by the Son of God and employed men as his agents to fill the Saviour's life with suffering and sorrow. The sophistry and falsehood by which he had sought to hinder the work of Jesus, the hatred manifested through the children of disobedience, his cruel accusations against Him whose life was one of unexampled goodness, all sprang from deep-seated revenge. The pent-up fires of envy and malice, hatred and revenge, burst forth on Calvary against the Son of God, while all heaven gazed upon the scene in silent horror.

    When the great sacrifice had been consummated, Christ ascended on high, refusing the adoration of angels until He had presented the request: "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 17:24. Then

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    with inexpressible love and power came forth the answer from the Father's throne: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6. Not a stain rested upon Jesus. His humiliation ended, His sacrifice completed, there was given unto Him a name that is above every name.

    Now the guilt of Satan stood forth without excuse. He had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he ruled the children of men, who were under his power, he would have manifested had he been permitted to control the inhabitants of heaven. He had claimed that the transgression of God's law would bring liberty and exaltation; but it was seen to result in bondage and degradation.

    Satan's lying charges against the divine character and government appeared in their true light. He had accused God of seeking merely the exaltation of Himself in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, and had declared that, while the Creator exacted self-denial from all others, He Himself practiced no self-denial and made no sacrifice. Now it was seen that for the salvation of a fallen and sinful race, the Ruler of the universe had made the greatest sacrifice which love could make; for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. It was seen, also, that while Lucifer had opened the door for the entrance of sin by his desire for honor and supremacy, Christ had, in order to destroy sin, humbled Himself and become obedient unto death.

    God had manifested His abhorrence of the principles of rebellion. All heaven saw His justice revealed, both in the condemnation of Satan and in the redemption of man. Lucifer had declared that if the law of God was changeless, and its penalty could not be remitted, every transgressor must be forever debarred from the Creator's favor. He had claimed that the sinful race were placed beyond redemption and were therefore his rightful prey. But the death of Christ was an argument in man's behalf that could not be overthrown. The

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    penalty of the law fell upon Him who was equal with God, and man was free to accept the righteousness of Christ and by a life of penitence and humiliation to triumph, as the Son of God had triumphed, over the power of Satan. Thus God is just and yet the justifier of all who believe in Jesus.

    But it was not merely to accomplish the redemption of man that Christ came to the earth to suffer and to die. He came to "magnify the law" and to "make it honorable." Not alone that the inhabitants of this world might regard the law as it should be regarded; but it was to demonstrate to all the worlds of the universe that God's law is unchangeable. Could its claims have been set aside, then the Son of God need not have yielded up His life to atone for its transgression. The death of Christ proves it immutable. And the sacrifice to which infinite love impelled the Father and the Son, that sinners might be redeemed, demonstrates to all the universe--what nothing less than this plan of atonement could have sufficed to do--that justice and mercy are the foundation of the law and government of God.

    In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless.

    The cross of Calvary, while it declares the law immutable, proclaims to the universe that the wages of sin is death. In the Saviour's expiring cry, "It is finished," the death knell of Satan was rung. The great controversy which had been so long in progress was then decided, and the final eradication of evil was made certain. The Son of God passed through the portals of the tomb, that "through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. Lucifer's desire for self-exaltation had led him to say: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the Most High." God declares: "I will bring

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    thee to ashes upon the earth, . . . and never shalt thou be any more." Isaiah 14:13, 14; Ezekiel 28:18, 19. When "the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;. . . .all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

    The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom.




    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:35 am

    Why was Sin Permitted? - from 'Patriarchs and Prophets' by Ellen White http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pp/pp1.html


    "GOD is love." 1 John 4:16. His nature, His law, is love. It ever has been; it ever will be. "The high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity," whose "ways are everlasting," changeth not. With Him "is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." Isaiah 57:15; Habakkuk 3:6; James 1:17.

    Every manifestation of creative power is an expression of infinite love. The sovereignty of God involves fullness of blessing to all created beings. The psalmist says:

    "Strong is Thy hand, and high is Thy right hand.
    Righteousness and judgment are the foundation of Thy throne:
    Mercy and truth go before Thy face.
    Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound:
    They walk, O Lord, in the light of Thy countenance.
    In Thy name do they rejoice all the day:
    And in Thy righteousness are they exalted.
    For Thou art the glory of their strength: . . .
    or our shield belongeth unto Jehovah,
    And our king to the Holy One."
    Psalm 89:13-18, R.V.

    The history of the great conflict between good and evil, from the time it first began in heaven to the final overthrow of rebellion and the total eradication of sin, is also a demonstration of God's unchanging love.

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    The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate--a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . . When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30.

    The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." Colossians 1:16. Angels are God's ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the "express image of His person," "the brightness of His glory," "upholding all things by the word of His power," holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. "A glorious high throne from the beginning," was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); "a scepter of righteousness," the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. "Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary." Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14.

    The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all intelligent beings depends upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love--service that springs from an appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced obedience; and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service.

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    So long as all created beings acknowledged the allegiance of love, there was perfect harmony throughout the universe of God. It was the joy of the heavenly host to fulfill the purpose of their Creator. They delighted in reflecting His glory and showing forth His praise. And while love to God was supreme, love for one another was confiding and unselfish. There was no note of discord to mar the celestial harmonies. But a change came over this happy state. There was one who perverted the freedom that God had granted to His creatures. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and was highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Lucifer, "son of the morning," was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. He stood in the presence of the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glory enshrouding the eternal God rested upon him. "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering. . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15.

    Little by little Lucifer came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. The Scripture says, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Ezekiel 28:17. "Thou hast said in thine heart, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. . . . I will be like the Most High." Isaiah 14:13, 14. Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father had invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone.

    Now the perfect harmony of heaven was broken. Lucifer's disposition to serve himself instead of his Creator aroused a feeling of apprehension when observed by those who considered that the

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    glory of God should be supreme. In heavenly council the angels pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed his jealousy of Christ to prevail, and became the more determined.

    To dispute the supremacy of the Son of God, thus impeaching the wisdom and love of the Creator, had become the purpose of this prince of angels. To this object he was about to bend the energies of that master mind, which, next to Christ's, was first among the hosts of God. But He who would have the will of all His creatures free, left none unguarded to the bewildering sophistry by which rebellion would seek to justify itself. Before the great contest should open, all were to have a clear presentation of His will, whose wisdom and goodness were the spring of all their joy.

    The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng--"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father's will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God's plan, but would exalt the Father's glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love.

    The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration. Lucifer bowed with them, but in his heart there was

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    a strange, fierce conflict. Truth, justice, and loyalty were struggling against envy and jealousy. The influence of the holy angels seemed for a time to carry him with them. As songs of praise ascended in melodious strains, swelled by thousands of glad voices, the spirit of evil seemed vanquished; unutterable love thrilled his entire being; his soul went out, in harmony with the sinless worshippers, in love to the Father and the Son. But again he was filled with pride in his own glory. His desire for supremacy returned, and envy of Christ was once more indulged. The high honors conferred upon Lucifer were not appreciated as God's special gift, and therefore, called forth no gratitude to his Creator. He glorified in his brightness and exaltation and aspired to be equal with God. He was beloved and reverenced by the heavenly host, angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all. Yet the Son of God was exalted above him, as one in power and authority with the Father. He shared the Father's counsels, while Lucifer did not thus enter into the purposes of God. "Why," questioned this mighty angel, "should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He honored above Lucifer?"

    Leaving his place in the immediate presence of the Father, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. He worked with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealed his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God. He began to insinuate doubts concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that though laws might be necessary for the inhabitants of the worlds, angels, being more exalted, needed no such restraint, for their own wisdom was a sufficient guide. They were not beings that could bring dishonor to God; all their thoughts were holy; it was no more possible for them than for God Himself to err. The exaltation of the Son of God as equal with the Father was represented as an injustice to Lucifer, who, it was claimed, was also entitled to reverence and honor. If this prince of angels could but attain to his true, exalted position, great good would accrue to the entire host of heaven; for it was his object to secure freedom for all. But now even the liberty which they had hitherto enjoyed was at an end; for an absolute Ruler had been appointed them, and to His authority all must pay homage. Such were the subtle deceptions that through the wiles of Lucifer were fast obtaining in the heavenly courts.

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    There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer's envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer's deceptions.

    Taking advantage of the loving, loyal trust reposed in him by the holy beings under his command, he had so artfully instilled into their minds his own distrust and discontent that his agency was not discerned. Lucifer had presented the purposes of God in a false light--misconstruing and distorting them to excite dissent and dissatisfaction. He cunningly drew his hearers on to give utterance to their feelings; then these expressions were repeated by him when it would serve his purpose, as evidence that the angels were not fully in harmony with the government of God. While claiming for himself perfect loyalty to God, he urged that changes in the order and laws of heaven were necessary for the stability of the divine government. Thus while working to excite opposition to the law of God and to instill his own discontent into the minds of the angels under him, he was ostensibly seeking to remove dissatisfaction and to reconcile disaffected angels to the order of heaven. While secretly fomenting discord and rebellion, he with consummate craft caused it to appear as his sole purpose to promote loyalty and to preserve harmony and peace.

    The spirit of dissatisfaction thus kindled was doing its baleful work. While there was no open outbreak, division of feeling imperceptibly grew up among the angels. There were some who looked with favor upon Lucifer's insinuations against the government of God. Although they had heretofore been in perfect harmony with the order which God had established, they were now discontented and unhappy because they could not penetrate His unsearchable counsels; they were dissatisfied with His purpose in exalting Christ. These stood ready to second Lucifer's demand for equal authority with the Son of God. But angels who were loyal and true maintained the wisdom and justice of he divine decree and endeavored to reconcile this disaffected being to the will of God. Christ was the Son of God; He had been one with Him before the angels were called into existence. He had ever stood at the right hand of the Father; His supremacy, so full of blessing to all who came under its benignant control, had not heretofore

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    been questioned. The harmony of heaven had never been interrupted; wherefore should there now be discord? The loyal angels could see only terrible consequences from this dissension, and with earnest entreaty they counseled the disaffected ones to renounce their purpose and prove themselves loyal to God by fidelity to His government.

    In great mercy, according to His divine character, God bore long with Lucifer. The spirit of discontent and disaffection had never before been known in heaven. It was a new element, strange, mysterious, unaccountable. Lucifer himself had not at first been acquainted with the real nature of his feelings; for a time he had feared to express the workings and imaginings of his mind; yet he did not dismiss them. He did not see whither he was drifting. But such efforts as infinite love and wisdom only could devise, were made to convince him of his error. His disaffection was proved to be without cause, and he was made to see what would be the result of persisting in revolt. Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong. He saw that "the Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works" (Psalm 145:17); that the divine statutes are just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at that time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had left his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. The time had come for a final decision; he must fully yield to the divine sovereignty or place himself in open rebellion. He nearly reached the decision to return, but pride forbade him. It was too great a sacrifice for one who had been so highly honored to confess that he had been in error, that his imaginings were false, and to yield to the authority which he had been working to prove unjust.

    A compassionate Creator, in yearning pity for Lucifer and his followers, was seeking to draw them back from the abyss of ruin into which they were about to plunge. But His mercy was misinterpreted. Lucifer pointed to the long-suffering of God as an evidence of his own superiority, an indication that the King of the universe would yet accede to his terms. If the angels would stand firmly with him, he declared, they could yet gain all that

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    they desired. He persistently defended his own course, and fully committed himself to the great controversy against his Maker. Thus it was that Lucifer, "the light bearer," the sharer of God's glory, the attendant of His throne, by transgression became Satan, "the adversary" of God and holy beings and the destroyer of those whom Heaven had committed to his guidance and guardianship.

    Rejecting with disdain the arguments and entreaties of the loyal angels, he denounced them as deluded slaves. The preference shown to Christ he declared an act of injustice both to himself and to all the heavenly host, and announced that he would no longer submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs. He would never again acknowledge the supremacy of Christ. He had determined to claim the honor which should have been given him, and take command of all who would become his followers; and he promised those would enter his ranks a new and better government, under which all would enjoy freedom. Great numbers of the angels signified their purpose to accept him as their leader. Flattered by the favor with which his advances were received, he hoped to win all the angels to his side, to become equal with God Himself, and to be obeyed by the entire host of heaven.

    Still the loyal angels urged him and his sympathizers to submit to God; and they set before them the inevitable result should they refuse: He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring. No angel could successfully oppose the law of God, which was as sacred as Himself. They warned all to close their ears against Lucifer's deceptive reasoning, and urged him and his followers to seek the presence of God without delay and confess the error of questioning His wisdom and authority.

    Many were disposed to heed this counsel, to repent of their disaffection, and seek to be again received into favor with the Father and His Son. But Lucifer had another deception ready. The mighty revolter now declared that the angels who had united with him had gone too far to return; that he was acquainted with the divine law, and knew that God would not forgive. He declared that all who should submit to the authority of Heaven would be stripped of their honor, degraded from their position. For himself, he was determined never again to acknowledge the

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    authority of Christ. The only course remaining for him and his followers, he said, was to assert their liberty, and gain by force the rights which had not been willingly accorded them.

    So far as Satan himself was concerned, it was true that he had now gone too far to return. But not so with those who had been blinded by his deceptions. To them the counsel and entreaties of the loyal angels opened a door of hope; and had they heeded the warning, they might have broken away from the snare of Satan. But pride, love for their leader, and the desire for unrestricted freedom were permitted to bear sway, and the pleadings of divine love and mercy were finally rejected.

    God permitted Satan to carry forward his work until the spirit of disaffection ripened into active revolt. It was necessary for his plans to be fully developed, that their true nature and tendency might be seen by all. Lucifer, as the anointed cherub, had been highly exalted; he was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong. God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the worlds that He had created; and Lucifer had concluded that if he could carry the angels of heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also all the worlds. He had artfully presented his side of the question, employing sophistry and fraud to secure his objects. His power to deceive was very great. By disguising himself in a cloak of falsehood, he had gained an advantage. All his acts were so clothed with mystery that it was difficult to disclose to the angels the true nature of his work. Until fully developed, it could not be made to appear the evil thing it was; his disaffection would not be seen to be rebellion. Even the loyal angels could not fully discern his character or see to what his work was leading.

    Lucifer had at first so conducted his temptations that he himself stood uncommitted. The angels whom he could not bring fully to his side, he accused of indifference to the interests of heavenly beings. The very work which he himself was doing, he charged upon the loyal angels. It was his policy to perplex with subtle arguments concerning the purposes of God. Everything that was simple he shrouded in mystery, and by artful perversion cast doubt upon the plainest statements of Jehovah. And his high position, so closely connected with the divine government, gave greater force to his representations.

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    God could employ only such means as were consistent with truth and righteousness. Satan could use what God could not-- flattery and deceit. He had sought to falsify the word of God and had misrepresented His plan of government, claiming that God was not just in imposing laws upon the angels; that in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, He was seeking merely the exaltation of Himself. It was therefore necessary to demonstrate before the inhabitants of heaven, and of all the worlds, that God's government is just, His law perfect. Satan had made it appear that he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe. The true character of the usurper and his real object must be understood by all. He must have time to manifest himself by his wicked works.

    The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore God permitted him to demonstrate the nature of his claims, to show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see deceiver unmasked.

    Even when he was cast out of heaven. Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since only the service of love can be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of the worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted out of existence, some would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would be the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, he must more fully developed his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, and that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might be forever placed beyond all question.

    Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its

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    terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy beings, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its penalty.

    He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. Though "clouds and darkness are round about Him: righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne." Psalm 97:2, R.V. And this the inhabitants of the universe, both loyal and disloyal, will one day understand. "His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." Deuteronomy 32:4.



    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:44 am

    PAPER 53: THE LUCIFER REBELLION - from The Urantia Book http://www.urantia.org/en/urantia-book-standardized/paper-53-lucifer-rebellion

    53:0.1 Lucifer was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty—rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.
    53:0.2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.
    053:1 THE LEADERS OF REBELLION
    53:1.1 Lucifer was not an ascendant being; he was a created Son of the local universe, and of him it was said: " You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created till unrighteousness was found in you. " Many times had he been in counsel with the Most Highs of Edentia. And Lucifer reigned " upon the holy mountain of God, " the administrative mount of Jerusem, for he was the chief executive of a great system of 607 inhabited worlds.
    53:1.2 Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority. Notwithstanding Lucifer's transgression, subordinate intelligences refrained from showing him disrespect and disdain prior to Michael's bestowal on Urantia. Even the archangel of Michael, at the time of Moses' resurrection, " did not bring against him an accusing judgment but simply said, `the Judge rebuke you.' " Judgment in such matters belongs to the Ancients of Days, the rulers of the superuniverse.
    53:1.3 Lucifer is now the fallen and deposed Sovereign of Satania. Self-contemplation is most disastrous, even to the exalted personalities of the celestial world. Of Lucifer it was said: " Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness. " Your olden prophet saw his sad estate when he wrote: " How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cast down, you who dared to confuse the worlds! "
    53:1.4 Very little was heard of Lucifer on Urantia owing to the fact that he assigned his first lieutenant, Satan, to advocate his cause on your planet. Satan was a member of the same primary group of Lanonandeks but had never functioned as a System Sovereign; he entered fully into the Lucifer insurrection. The " devil " is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.
    53:1.5 Abaddon was the chief of the staff of Caligastia. He followed his master into rebellion and has ever since acted as chief executive of the Urantia rebels. Beelzebub was the leader of the disloyal midway creatures who allied themselves with the forces of the traitorous Caligastia.
    53:1.6 The dragon eventually became the symbolic representation of all these evil personages. Upon the triumph of Michael, " Gabriel came down from Salvington and bound the dragon (all the rebel leaders) for an age. " Of the Jerusem seraphic rebels it is written: " And the angels who kept not their first estate but left their own habitation, he has reserved in sure chains of darkness to the judgment of the great day. "

    53:2 THE CAUSES OF REBELLION
    53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.
    53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer's mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of " self-assertion and liberty. "
    53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer's mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.
    53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.
    53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer's mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.
    Bible References

    53:3 THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO
    53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:
    53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals.
    53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son—Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.
    53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—" foreign potentates "—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.
    53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.
    53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.
    53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.
    Bible References

    53:4 OUTBREAK OF THE REBELLION
    53:4.1 The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces—physical, intellectual, and spiritual—but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the " friend of men and angels " and the " God of liberty. "
    53:4.2 Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion. One of his chief arguments was that, if self-government was good and right for the Melchizedeks and other groups, it was equally good for all orders of intelligence. He was bold and persistent in the advocacy of the " equality of mind " and " the brotherhood of intelligence. " He maintained that all government should be limited to the local planets and their voluntary confederation into the local systems. All other supervision he disallowed. He promised the Planetary Princes that they should rule the worlds as supreme executives. He denounced the location of legislative activities on the constellation headquarters and the conduct of judicial affairs on the universe capital. He contended that all these functions of government should be concentrated on the system capitals and proceeded to set up his own legislative assembly and organized his own tribunals under the jurisdiction of Satan. And he directed that the princes on the apostate worlds do the same.
    53:4.3 The entire administrative cabinet of Lucifer went over in a body and were sworn in publicly as the officers of the administration of the new head of " the liberated worlds and systems. "
    53:4.4 While there had been two previous rebellions in Nebadon, they were in distant constellations. Lucifer held that these insurrections were unsuccessful because the majority of the intelligences failed to follow their leaders. He contended that " majorities rule, " that " mind is infallible. " The freedom allowed him by the universe rulers apparently sustained many of his nefarious contentions. He defied all his superiors; yet they apparently took no note of his doings. He was given a free hand to prosecute his seductive plan without let or hindrance.
    53:4.5 All the merciful delays of justice Lucifer pointed to as evidence of the inability of the government of the Paradise Sons to stop the rebellion. He would openly defy and arrogantly challenge Michael, Immanuel, and the Ancients of Days and then point to the fact that no action ensued as positive evidence of the impotency of the universe and the superuniverse governments.
    53:4.6 Gabriel was personally present throughout all these disloyal proceedings and only announced that he would, in due time, speak for Michael, and that all beings would be left free and unmolested in their choice; that the " government of the Sons for the Father desired only that loyalty and devotion which was voluntary, wholehearted, and sophistry-proof. "
    53:4.7 Lucifer was permitted fully to establish and thoroughly to organize his rebel government before Gabriel made any effort to contest the right of secession or to counterwork the rebel propaganda. But the Constellation Fathers immediately confined the action of these disloyal personalities to the system of Satania. Nevertheless, this period of delay was a time of great trial and testing to the loyal beings of all Satania. All was chaotic for a few years, and there was great confusion on the mansion worlds.
    Bible References

    53:5 NATURE OF THE CONFLICT
    53:5.1 Upon the outbreak of the Satania rebellion, Michael took counsel of his Paradise brother, Immanuel. Following this momentous conference, Michael announced that he would pursue the same policy which had characterized his dealings with similar upheavals in the past, an attitude of noninterference.
    53:5.2 At the time of this rebellion and the two which preceded it there was no absolute and personal sovereign authority in the universe of Nebadon. Michael ruled by divine right, as vicegerent of the Universal Father, but not yet in his own personal right. He had not completed his bestowal career; he had not yet been vested with " all power in heaven and on earth. "
    53:5.3 From the outbreak of rebellion to the day of his enthronement as sovereign ruler of Nebadon, Michael never interfered with the rebel forces of Lucifer; they were allowed to run a free course for almost two hundred thousand years of Urantia time. Christ Michael now has ample power and authority to deal promptly, even summarily, with such outbreaks of disloyalty, but we doubt that this sovereign authority would lead him to act differently if another such upheaval should occur.
    53:5.4 Since Michael elected to remain aloof from the actual warfare of the Lucifer rebellion, Gabriel called his personal staff together on Edentia and, in counsel with the Most Highs, elected to assume command of the loyal hosts of Satania. Michael remained on Salvington while Gabriel proceeded to Jerusem, and establishing himself on the sphere dedicated to the Father—the same Universal Father whose personality Lucifer and Satan had questioned—in the presence of the forgathered hosts of loyal personalities, he displayed the banner of Michael, the material emblem of the Trinity government of all creation, the three azure blue concentric circles on a white background.
    53:5.5 The Lucifer emblem was a banner of white with one red circle, in the center of which a black solid circle appeared.
    53:5.6 " There was war in heaven; Michael's commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not. " This " war in heaven " was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater. Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand. The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.
    53:5.7 But this war in heaven was very terrible and very real. While displaying none of the barbarities so characteristic of physical warfare on the immature worlds, this conflict was far more deadly; material life is in jeopardy in material combat, but the war in heaven was fought in terms of life eternal.
    Bible References

    53:6 A LOYAL SERAPHIC COMMANDER
    53:6.1 There were many noble and inspiring acts of devotion and loyalty which were performed by numerous personalities during the interim between the outbreak of hostilities and the arrival of the new system ruler and his staff. But the most thrilling of all these daring feats of devotion was the courageous conduct of Manotia, the second in command of the Satania headquarters' seraphim.
    53:6.2 At the outbreak of rebellion on Jerusem the head of the seraphic hosts joined the Lucifer cause. This no doubt explains why such a large number of the fourth order, the system administrator seraphim, went astray. The seraphic leader was spiritually blinded by the brilliant personality of Lucifer; his charming ways fascinated the lower orders of celestial beings. They simply could not comprehend that it was possible for such a dazzling personality to go wrong.
    53:6.3 Not long since, in describing the experiences associated with the onset of the Lucifer rebellion, Manotia said: " But my most exhilarating moment was the thrilling adventure connected with the Lucifer rebellion when, as second seraphic commander, I refused to participate in the projected insult to Michael; and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.
    53:6.4 " Upon the default of my immediate superior it devolved upon me to assume command of the angelic hosts of Jerusem as the titular director of the confused seraphic affairs of the system. I was morally upheld by the Melchizedeks, ably assisted by a majority of the Material Sons, deserted by a tremendous group of my own order, but magnificently supported by the ascendant mortals on Jerusem.
    53:6.5 " Having been automatically thrown out of the constellation circuits by the secession of Lucifer, we were dependent on the loyalty of our intelligence corps, who forwarded calls for help to Edentia from the near-by system of Rantulia; and we found that the kingdom of order, the intellect of loyalty, and the spirit of truth were inherently triumphant over rebellion, self-assertion, and so-called personal liberty; we were able to carry on until the arrival of the new System Sovereign, the worthy successor of Lucifer. And immediately thereafter I was assigned to the corps of the Melchizedek receivership of Urantia, assuming jurisdiction over the loyal seraphic orders on the world of the traitorous Caligastia, who had proclaimed his sphere a member of the newly projected system of `liberated worlds and emancipated personalities' proposed in the infamous Declaration of Liberty issued by Lucifer in his call to the `liberty-loving, free-thinking, and forward-looking intelligences of the misruled and maladministered worlds of Satania.' "
    53:6.6 This angel is still in service on Urantia, functioning as associate chief of seraphim.

    53:7 HISTORY OF THE REBELLION
    53:7.1 The Lucifer rebellion was system wide. Thirty-seven seceding Planetary Princes swung their world administrations largely to the side of the archrebel. Only on Panoptia did the Planetary Prince fail to carry his people with him. On this world, under the guidance of the Melchizedeks, the people rallied to the support of Michael. Ellanora, a young woman of that mortal realm, grasped the leadership of the human races, and not a single soul on that strife-torn world enlisted under the Lucifer banner. And ever since have these loyal Panoptians served on the seventh Jerusem transition world as the caretakers and builders on the Father's sphere and its surrounding seven detention worlds. The Panoptians not only act as the literal custodians of these worlds, but they also execute the personal orders of Michael for the embellishment of these spheres for some future and unknown use. They do this work as they tarry en route to Edentia.
    53:7.2 Throughout this period Caligastia was advocating the cause of Lucifer on Urantia. The Melchizedeks ably opposed the apostate Planetary Prince, but the sophistries of unbridled liberty and the delusions of self-assertion had every opportunity for deceiving the primitive peoples of a young and undeveloped world.
    53:7.3 All secession propaganda had to be carried on by personal effort because the broadcast service and all other avenues of interplanetary communication were suspended by the action of the system circuit supervisors. Upon the actual outbreak of the insurrection the entire system of Satania was isolated in both the constellation and the universe circuits. During this time all incoming and outgoing messages were dispatched by seraphic agents and Solitary Messengers. The circuits to the fallen worlds were also cut off, so that Lucifer could not utilize this avenue for the furtherance of his nefarious scheme. And these circuits will not be restored so long as the archrebel lives within the confines of Satania.
    53:7.4 This was a Lanonandek rebellion. The higher orders of local universe sonship did not join the Lucifer secession, although a few of the Life Carriers stationed on the rebel planets were somewhat influenced by the rebellion of the disloyal princes. None of the Trinitized Sons went astray. The Melchizedeks, archangels, and the Brilliant Evening Stars were all loyal to Michael and, with Gabriel, valiantly contended for the Father's will and the Son's rule.
    53:7.5 No beings of Paradise origin were involved in disloyalty. Together with the Solitary Messengers they took up headquarters on the world of the Spirit and remained under the leadership of the Faithful of Days of Edentia. None of the conciliators apostatized, nor did a single one of the Celestial Recorders go astray. But a heavy toll was taken of the Morontia Companions and the Mansion World Teachers.
    53:7.6 Of the supreme order of seraphim, not an angel was lost, but a considerable group of the next order, the superior, were deceived and ensnared. Likewise a few of the third or supervisor order of angels were misled. But the terrible breakdown came in the fourth group, the administrator angels, those seraphim who are normally assigned to the duties of the system capitals. Manotia saved almost two thirds of them, but slightly over one third followed their chief into the rebel ranks. One third of all the Jerusem cherubim attached to the administrator angels were lost with their disloyal seraphim.
    53:7.7 Of the planetary angelic helpers, those assigned to the Material Sons, about one third were deceived, and almost ten per cent of the transition ministers were ensnared. In symbol John saw this when he wrote of the great red dragon, saying: " And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven and cast them down in darkness. "
    53:7.8 The greatest loss occurred in the angelic ranks, but most of the lower orders of intelligence were involved in disloyalty. Of the 681,227 Material Sons lost in Satania, ninety-five per cent were casualties of the Lucifer rebellion. Large numbers of midway creatures were lost on those individual planets whose Planetary Princes joined the Lucifer cause.
    53:7.9 In many respects this rebellion was the most widespread and disastrous of all such occurrences in Nebadon. More personalities were involved in this insurrection than in both of the others. And it is to their everlasting dishonor that the emissaries of Lucifer and Satan spared not the infant-training schools on the finaliter cultural planet but rather sought to corrupt these developing minds in mercy salvaged from the evolutionary worlds.
    53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
    53:7.11 Hour by hour and day by day the broadcast stations of all Nebadon were thronged by the anxious watchers of every imaginable class of celestial intelligence, who intently perused the bulletins of the Satania rebellion and rejoiced as the reports continuously narrated the unswerving loyalty of the ascending mortals who, under their Melchizedek leadership, successfully withstood the combined and protracted efforts of all the subtle evil forces which so swiftly gathered around the banners of secession and sin.
    53:7.12 It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the " war in heaven " until the installation of Lucifer's successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: " Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious. " And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
    53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, " their place was found no more. "
    53:7.14 While Lucifer was deprived of all administrative authority in Satania, there then existed no local universe power nor tribunal which could detain or destroy this wicked rebel; at that time Michael was not a sovereign ruler. The Ancients of Days sustained the Constellation Fathers in their seizure of the system government, but they have never handed down any subsequent decisions in the many appeals still pending with regard to the present status and future disposition of Lucifer, Satan, and their associates.
    53:7.15 Thus were these archrebels allowed to roam the entire system to seek further penetration for their doctrines of discontent and self-assertion. But in almost two hundred thousand Urantia years they have been unable to deceive another world. No Satania worlds have been lost since the fall of the thirty-seven, not even those younger worlds peopled since that day of rebellion.
    Bible References

    53:8 THE SON OF MAN ON URANTIA
    53:8.1 Lucifer and Satan freely roamed the Satania system until the completion of the bestowal mission of Michael on Urantia. They were last on your world together during the time of their combined assault upon the Son of Man.
    53:8.2 Formerly, when the Planetary Princes, the " Sons of God, " were periodically assembled, " Satan came also, " claiming that he represented all of the isolated worlds of the fallen Planetary Princes. But he has not been accorded such liberty on Jerusem since Michael's terminal bestowal. Subsequent to their effort to corrupt Michael when in the bestowal flesh, all sympathy for Lucifer and Satan has perished throughout all Satania, that is, outside the isolated worlds of sin.
    53:8.3 The bestowal of Michael terminated the Lucifer rebellion in all Satania aside from the planets of the apostate Planetary Princes. And this was the significance of Jesus' personal experience, just before his death in the flesh, when he one day exclaimed to his disciples, " And I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven. " He had come with Lucifer to Urantia for the last crucial struggle.
    53:8.4 The Son of Man was confident of success, and he knew that his triumph on your world would forever settle the status of his agelong enemies, not only in Satania but also in the other two systems where sin had entered. There was survival for mortals and security for angels when your Master, in reply to the Lucifer proposals, calmly and with divine assurance replied, " Get you behind me, Satan. " That was, in principle, the real end of the Lucifer rebellion. True, the Uversa tribunals have not yet rendered the executive decision regarding the appeal of Gabriel praying for the destruction of the rebels, but such a decree will, no doubt, be forthcoming in the fullness of time since the first step in the hearing of this case has already been taken.
    53:8.5 Caligastia was recognized by the Son of Man as the technical Prince of Urantia up to near the time of his death. Said Jesus: " Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast down. " And then still nearer the completion of his lifework he announced, " The prince of this world is judged. " And it is this same dethroned and discredited Prince who was once termed " God of Urantia. "
    53:8.6 The last act of Michael before leaving Urantia was to offer mercy to Caligastia and Daligastia, but they spurned his tender proffer. Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.
    53:8.7 Before the bestowal of Michael these rulers of darkness sought to maintain their authority on Urantia, and they persistently withstood the minor and subordinate celestial personalities. But since the day of Pentecost this traitorous Caligastia and his equally contemptible associate, Daligastia, are servile before the divine majesty of the Paradise Thought Adjusters and the protective Spirit of Truth, the spirit of Michael, which has been poured out upon all flesh.
    53:8.8 But even so, no fallen spirit ever did have the power to invade the minds or to harass the souls of the children of God. Neither Satan nor Caligastia could ever touch or approach the faith sons of God; faith is an effective armor against sin and iniquity. It is true: " He who is born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one touches him not. "
    53:8.9 In general, when weak and dissolute mortals are supposed to be under the influence of devils and demons, they are merely being dominated by their own inherent and debased tendencies, being led away by their own natural propensities. The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him. Caligastia has been comparatively impotent since the cross of Christ.
    Bible References

    53:9 PRESENT STATUS OF THE REBELLION
    53:9.1 Early in the days of the Lucifer rebellion, salvation was offered all rebels by Michael. To all who would show proof of sincere repentance, he offered, upon his attainment of complete universe sovereignty, forgiveness and reinstatement in some form of universe service. None of the leaders accepted this merciful proffer. But thousands of the angels and the lower orders of celestial beings, including hundreds of the Material Sons and Daughters, accepted the mercy proclaimed by the Panoptians and were given rehabilitation at the time of Jesus' resurrection nineteen hundred years ago. These beings have since been transferred to the Father's world of Jerusem, where they must be held, technically, until the Uversa courts hand down a decision in the matter of Gabriel vs. Lucifer. But no one doubts that, when the annihilation verdict is issued, these repentant and salvaged personalities will be exempted from the decree of extinction. These probationary souls now labor with the Panoptians in the work of caring for the Father's world.
    53:9.2 The archdeceiver has never been on Urantia since the days when he sought to turn back Michael from the purpose to complete the bestowal and to establish himself finally and securely as the unqualified ruler of Nebadon. Upon Michael's becoming the settled head of the universe of Nebadon, Lucifer was taken into custody by the agents of the Uversa Ancients of Days and has since been a prisoner on satellite number one of the Father's group of the transition spheres of Jerusem. And here the rulers of other worlds and systems behold the end of the unfaithful Sovereign of Satania. Paul knew of the status of these rebellious leaders following Michael's bestowal, for he wrote of Caligastia' s chiefs as " spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. "
    53:9.3 Michael, upon assuming the supreme sovereignty of Nebadon, petitioned the Ancients of Days for authority to intern all personalities concerned in the Lucifer rebellion pending the rulings of the superuniverse tribunals in the case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer, placed on the records of the Uversa supreme court almost two hundred thousand years ago, as you reckon time. Concerning the system capital group, the Ancients of Days granted the Michael petition with but a single exception: Satan was allowed to make periodic visits to the apostate princes on the fallen worlds until another Son of God should be accepted by such apostate worlds, or until such time as the courts of Uversa should begin the adjudication of the case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer.
    53:9.4 Satan could come to Urantia because you had no Son of standing in residence—neither Planetary Prince nor Material Son. Machiventa Melchizedek has since been proclaimed vicegerent Planetary Prince of Urantia, and the opening of the case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer has signalized the inauguration of temporary planetary regimes on all the isolated worlds. It is true that Satan did periodically visit Caligastia and others of the fallen princes right up to the time of the presentation of these revelations, when there occurred the first hearing of Gabriel's plea for the annihilation of the archrebels. Satan is now unqualifiedly detained on the Jerusem prison worlds.
    53:9.5 Since Michael's final bestowal no one in all Satania has desired to go to the prison worlds to minister to the interned rebels. And no more beings have been won to the deceiver's cause. For nineteen hundred years the status has been unchanged.
    53:9.6 We do not look for a removal of the present Satania restrictions until the Ancients of Days make final disposition of the archrebels. The system circuits will not be reinstated so long as Lucifer lives. Meantime, he is wholly inactive.
    53:9.7 The rebellion has ended on Jerusem. It ends on the fallen worlds as fast as divine Sons arrive. We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so. We await the flashing broadcast that will deprive these traitors of personality existence. We anticipate the verdict of Uversa will be announced by the executionary broadcast which will effect the annihilation of these interned rebels. Then will you look for their places, but they shall not be found. " And they who know you among the worlds will be astonished at you; you have been a terror, but never shall you be any more. " And thus shall all of these unworthy traitors " become as though they had not been. " All await the Uversa decree.
    53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth " that the way of the transgressor is hard "; " that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction "; that " the wages of sin is death. "


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:47 am

    PAPER 54: PROBLEMS OF THE LUCIFER REBELLION - from the Urantia Book http://www.urantia.org/en/urantia-book-standardized/paper-54-problems-lucifer-rebellion

    54:0.1 Evolutionary man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.
    54:0.2 The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.

    54:1 TRUE AND FALSE LIBERTY
    54:1.1 Of all the perplexing problems growing out of the Lucifer rebellion, none has occasioned more difficulty than the failure of immature evolutionary mortals to distinguish between true and false liberty.
    54:1.2 True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice—intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity.
    54:1.3 Liberty is a self-destroying technique of cosmic existence when its motivation is unintelligent, unconditioned, and uncontrolled. True liberty is progressively related to reality and is ever regardful of social equity, cosmic fairness, universe fraternity, and divine obligations.
    54:1.4 Liberty is suicidal when divorced from material justice, intellectual fairness, social forbearance, moral duty, and spiritual values. Liberty is nonexistent apart from cosmic reality, and all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships.
    54:1.5 Unbridled self-will and unregulated self-expression equal unmitigated selfishness, the acme of ungodliness. Liberty without the associated and ever-increasing conquest of self is a figment of egoistic mortal imagination. Self-motivated liberty is a conceptual illusion, a cruel deception. License masquerading in the garments of liberty is the forerunner of abject bondage.
    54:1.6 True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.
    54:1.7 Even wisdom is divine and safe only when it is cosmic in scope and spiritual in motivation.
    54:1.8 There is no error greater than that species of self-deception which leads intelligent beings to crave the exercise of power over other beings for the purpose of depriving these persons of their natural liberties. The golden rule of human fairness cries out against all such fraud, unfairness, selfishness, and unrighteousness. Only true and genuine liberty is compatible with the reign of love and the ministry of mercy.
    54:1.9 How dare the self-willed creature encroach upon the rights of his fellows in the name of personal liberty when the Supreme Rulers of the universe stand back in merciful respect for these prerogatives of will and potentials of personality! No being, in the exercise of his supposed personal liberty, has a right to deprive any other being of those privileges of existence conferred by the Creators and duly respected by all their loyal associates, subordinates, and subjects.
    54:1.10 Evolutionary man may have to contend for his material liberties with tyrants and oppressors on a world of sin and iniquity or during the early times of a primitive evolving sphere, but not so on the morontia worlds or on the spirit spheres. War is the heritage of early evolutionary man, but on worlds of normal advancing civilization physical combat as a technique of adjusting racial misunderstandings has long since fallen into disrepute.

    54:2 THE THEFT OF LIBERTY
    54:2.1 With the Son and in the Spirit did God project eternal Havona, and ever since has there obtained the eternal pattern of co-ordinate participation in creation—sharing. This pattern of sharing is the master design for every one of the Sons and Daughters of God who go out into space to engage in the attempt to duplicate in time the central universe of eternal perfection.
    54:2.2 Every creature of every evolving universe who aspires to do the Father's will is destined to become the partner of the time-space Creators in this magnificent adventure of experiential perfection attainment. Were this not true, the Father would have hardly endowed such creatures with creative free will, neither would he indwell them, actually go into partnership with them by means of his own spirit.
    54:2.3 Lucifer' s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer's crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature's personal participation—freewill participation—in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing, this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God's will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania—a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon.
    54:2.4 In short, what God had given men and angels Lucifer would have taken away from them, that is, the divine privilege of participating in the creation of their own destinies and of the destiny of this local system of inhabited worlds.
    54:2.5 No being in all the universe has the rightful liberty to deprive any other being of true liberty, the right to love and be loved, the privilege of worshiping God and of serving his fellows.
    54:3 THE TIME LAG OF JUSTICE
    Audio Version
    54:3.1 The moral will creatures of the evolutionary worlds are always bothered with the unthinking question as to why the all-wise Creators permit evil and sin. They fail to comprehend that both are inevitable if the creature is to be truly free. The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality. This liberty to choose for oneself is an endowment of the Supreme Rulers, and they will not permit any being or group of beings to deprive a single personality in the wide universe of this divinely bestowed liberty—not even to satisfy such misguided and ignorant beings in the enjoyment of this misnamed personal liberty.
    54:3.2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty—the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil—a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual's universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
    54:3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.

    54:4 THE MERCY TIME LAG
    54:4.1 Another problem somewhat difficult of explanation in the constellation of Norlatiadek pertains to the reasons for permitting Lucifer, Satan, and the fallen princes to work mischief so long before being apprehended, interned, and adjudicated.
    54:4.2 Parents, those who have borne and reared children, are better able to understand why Michael, a Creator-father, might be slow to condemn and destroy his own Sons. Jesus' story of the prodigal son well illustrates how a loving father can long wait for the repentance of an erring child.
    54:4.3 The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong—commit sin—establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.
    54:4.4 Most of the liberties which Lucifer sought he already had; others he was to receive in the future. All these precious endowments were lost by giving way to impatience and yielding to a desire to possess what one craves now and to possess it in defiance of all obligation to respect the rights and liberties of all other beings composing the universe of universes. Ethical obligations are innate, divine, and universal.
    54:4.5 There are many reasons known to us why the Supreme Rulers did not immediately destroy or intern the leaders of the Lucifer rebellion. There are no doubt still other and possibly better reasons unknown to us. The mercy features of this delay in the execution of justice were extended personally by Michael of Nebadon. Except for the affection of this Creator-father for his erring Sons, the supreme justice of the superuniverse would have acted. If such an episode as the Lucifer rebellion had occurred in Nebadon while Michael was incarnated on Urantia, the instigators of such evil might have been instantly and absolutely annihilated.
    54:4.6 Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy. But the ministry of mercy to the children of time and space always provides for this time lag, this saving interval between seedtime and harvest. If the seed sowing is good, this interval provides for the testing and upbuilding of character; if the seed sowing is evil, this merciful delay provides time for repentance and rectification. This time delay in the adjudication and execution of evildoers is inherent in the mercy ministry of the seven superuniverses. This restraint of justice by mercy proves that God is love, and that such a God of love dominates the universes and in mercy controls the fate and judgment of all his creatures.
    54:4.7 The mercy delays of time are by the mandate of the free will of the Creators. There is good to be derived in the universe from this technique of patience in dealing with sinful rebels. While it is all too true that good cannot come of evil to the one who contemplates and performs evil, it is equally true that all things (including evil, potential and manifest) work together for good to all beings who know God, love to do his will, and are ascending Paradiseward according to his eternal plan and divine purpose.
    54:4.8 But these mercy delays are not interminable. Notwithstanding the long delay (as time is reckoned on Urantia) in adjudicating the Lucifer rebellion, we may record that, during the time of effecting this revelation, the first hearing in the pending case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer was held on Uversa, and soon thereafter there issued the mandate of the Ancients of Days directing that Satan be henceforth confined to the prison world with Lucifer. This ends the ability of Satan to pay further visits to any of the fallen worlds of Satania. Justice in a mercy-dominated universe may be slow, but it is certain.
    Bible References

    54:5 THE WISDOM OF DELAY
    54:5.1 Of the many reasons known to me as to why Lucifer and his confederates were not sooner interned or adjudicated, I am permitted to recite the following:
    54:5.2 Mercy requires that every wrongdoer have sufficient time in which to formulate a deliberate and fully chosen attitude regarding his evil thoughts and sinful acts.
    54:5.3 Supreme justice is dominated by a Father's love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.
    54:5.4 No affectionate father is ever precipitate in visiting punishment upon an erring member of his family. Patience cannot function independently of time.
    54:5.5 While wrongdoing is always deleterious to a family, wisdom and love admonish the upright children to bear with an erring brother during the time granted by the affectionate father in which the sinner may see the error of his way and embrace salvation.
    54:5.6 Regardless of Michael's attitude toward Lucifer, notwithstanding his being Lucifer's Creator-father, it was not in the province of the Creator Son to exercise summary jurisdiction over the apostate System Sovereign because he had not then completed his bestowal career, thereby attaining unqualified sovereignty of Nebadon.
    54:5.7 The Ancients of Days could have immediately annihilated these rebels, but they seldom execute wrongdoers without a full hearing. In this instance they refused to overrule the Michael decisions.
    54:5.8 It is evident that Immanuel counseled Michael to remain aloof from the rebels and allow rebellion to pursue a natural course of self-obliteration. And the wisdom of the Union of Days is the time reflection of the united wisdom of the Paradise Trinity.
    54:5.9 The Faithful of Days on Edentia advised the Constellation Fathers to allow the rebels free course to the end that all sympathy for these evildoers should be the sooner uprooted in the hearts of every present and future citizen of Norlatiadek—every mortal, morontia, or spirit creature.
    54:5.10 On Jerusem the personal representative of the Supreme Executive of Orvonton counseled Gabriel to foster full opportunity for every living creature to mature a deliberate choice in those matters involved in the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The issues of rebellion having been raised, the Paradise emergency adviser of Gabriel portrayed that, if such full and free opportunity were not given all Norlatiadek creatures, then would the Paradise quarantine against all such possible halfhearted or doubt-stricken creatures be extended in self-protection against the entire constellation. To keep open the Paradise doors of ascension to the beings of Norlatiadek, it was necessary to provide for the full development of rebellion and to insure the complete determination of attitude on the part of all beings in any way concerned therewith.
    54:5.11 The Divine Minister of Salvington issued as her third independent proclamation a mandate directing that nothing be done to half cure, cowardly suppress, or otherwise hide the hideous visage of rebels and rebellion. The angelic hosts were directed to work for full disclosure and unlimited opportunity for sin-expression as the quickest technique of achieving the perfect and final cure of the plague of evil and sin.
    54:5.12 An emergency council of ex-mortals consisting of Mighty Messengers, glorified mortals who had had personal experience with like situations, together with their colleagues, was organized on Jerusem. They advised Gabriel that at least three times the number of beings would be led astray if arbitrary or summary methods of suppression were attempted. The entire Uversa corps of counselors concurred in advising Gabriel to permit the rebellion to take its full and natural course, even if it should require a million years to wind up the consequences.
    54:5.13 Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer's life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.
    54:5.14 There are an equal number of reasons for not arbitrarily stopping the Lucifer rebellion which would be partially comprehensible to you, but which I am not permitted to narrate. I may inform you that on Uversa we teach forty-eight reasons for permitting evil to run the full course of its own moral bankruptcy and spiritual extinction. I doubt not that there are just as many additional reasons not known to me.

    54:6 THE TRIUMPH OF LOVE
    54:6.1 Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.
    54:6.2 In all their dealings with intelligent beings, both the Creator Son and his Paradise Father are love dominated. It is impossible to comprehend many phases of the attitude of the universe rulers toward rebels and rebellion—sin and sinners—unless it be remembered that God as a Father takes precedence over all other phases of Deity manifestation in all the dealings of divinity with humanity. It should also be recalled that the Paradise Creator Sons are all mercy motivated.
    54:6.3 If an affectionate father of a large family chooses to show mercy to one of his children guilty of grievous wrongdoing, it may well be that the extension of mercy to this misbehaving child will work a temporary hardship upon all the other and well-behaved children. Such eventualities are inevitable; such a risk is inseparable from the reality situation of having a loving parent and of being a member of a family group. Each member of a family profits by the righteous conduct of every other member; likewise must each member suffer the immediate time-consequences of the misconduct of every other member. Families, groups, nations, races, worlds, systems, constellations, and universes are relationships of association which possess individuality; and therefore does every member of any such group, large or small, reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of the rightdoing and the wrongdoing of all other members of the group concerned.
    54:6.4 But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere—no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors—you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.
    54:6.5 And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.
    54:6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer's folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.
    54:6.7 But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer's superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.
    54:6.8 Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.
    54:6.9 One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.
    54:6.10 As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil. After you attain Paradise, you will really be enlightened and comforted when you listen to the superaphic philosophers discuss and explain these profound problems of universe adjustment. But even then, I doubt that you will be fully satisfied in your own minds. At least I was not even when I had thus attained the acme of universe philosophy. I did not achieve a full comprehension of these complexities until after I had been assigned to administrative duties in the superuniverse, where by actual experience I have acquired conceptual capacity adequate for the comprehension of such many-sided problems in cosmic equity and spiritual philosophy. As you ascend Paradiseward, you will increasingly learn that many problematic features of universe administration can only be comprehended subsequent to the acquirement of increased experiential capacity and to the achievement of enhanced spiritual insight. Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations.


    Last edited by orthodoxymoron on Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Carol on Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:04 am

    This is a lot of information and very timely because one of the themes in my book is about the battle for souls and the great deception. Do you mind if I use some of this info Oxy?


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    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:27 pm

    Thank-you Carol. I don't mind at all. Why is every post now in bold print? I didn't consciously do this (the devil made me do it!) - and I can't seem to reverse it (the good that I would - I do not!). I'm just trying to get at the essence of the politics, religion, architecture, art, music, etc. through all of history - and to then incorporate the best of this into a new paradigm (with the help of George Green!). The theory is that there is a central source of most of this which is not the Creator God of the Universe - yet which is not the Human Race As We Know It. There seems to be an In Between Source of Most of This which is a combination of Superhuman Genius and Cruel Inhuman Insanity. I was just looking at a tourists picture book of Rome. The art and architecture in Rome is beyond comprehension. The artrocities and deceptions perpetrated in Rome are unmentionable and unfathomable. But was their source the same? Does this source rule the world through the City States today? I'm leaning strongly in that direction. How do we throw out the bathwater without throwing out the baby? What do you think Lucifer? Have you placed a poison-pill in the middle of all of this? If so - would you please remove it - retire - and serve as an advisor from a distance? Sometimes I think you're the only one who pays much attention to these threads. On the other hand - if people really got deeply involved in all of this - they probably couldn't handle it. I guess I just want a critical mass of beings in this solar system (human, hybrid, and otherwise) to really do the right thing at this point in time. I'm not really sure what that is - but I am damn sure that it's not business as usual - as seen throughout history. We need to clean this mess up NOW. RIGHT NOW.
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:05 pm

    The Controversy Ended - from 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen White http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc42.html

    At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death.

    Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him.

    Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: "The Lord my God

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    shall come, and all the saints with Thee." "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, . . . and there shall be a very great valley." "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." Zechariah 14:5, 4, 9. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City.

    Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.

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    In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell.

    Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions.

    At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.

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    Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance.

    Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs.

    The redeemed raise a song of praise that echoes and re-echoes through the vaults of heaven: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." Verse 10. And angel and seraph unite their voices in adoration. As the redeemed have beheld the power and malignity of Satan, they have seen, as never before, that no power but that of Christ could have made them conquerors. In all that shining throng there are none to ascribe salvation to themselves, as if they had prevailed by their own power and goodness. Nothing is said of what they have done or suffered; but the burden of every song, the keynote of every anthem, is: Salvation to our God and unto the Lamb.

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    In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:11, 12.

    As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire.

    Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam's temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. The Saviour's lowly birth; His early life of simplicity and obedience; His baptism in Jordan; the fast and temptation in the wilderness; His public ministry, unfolding to men heaven's most precious blessings; the days crowded with deeds of love and mercy, the nights of prayer and watching in the solitude of the mountains; the plottings of envy, hate, and malice which repaid His benefits; the awful, mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the crushing weight of the sins of the whole world; His betrayal into the hands of the murderous

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    mob; the fearful events of that night of horror--the unresisting prisoner, forsaken by His best-loved disciples, rudely hurried through the streets of Jerusalem; the Son of God exultingly displayed before Annas, arraigned in the high priest's palace, in the judgment hall of Pilate, before the cowardly and cruel Herod, mocked, insulted, tortured, and condemned to die--all are vividly portrayed.

    And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes--the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; the haughty priests and the jeering rabble deriding His expiring agony; the supernatural darkness; the heaving earth, the rent rocks, the open graves, marking the moment when the world's Redeemer yielded up His life.

    The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. Herod, who slew the innocent children of Bethlehem that he might destroy the King of Israel; the base Herodias, upon whose guilty soul rests the blood of John the Baptist; the weak, timeserving Pilate; the mocking soldiers; the priests and rulers and the maddened throng who cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children!"--all behold the enormity of their guilt. They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun, while the redeemed cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet, exclaiming: "He died for me!"

    Amid the ransomed throng are the apostles of Christ, the heroic Paul, the ardent Peter, the loved and loving John, and their truehearted brethren, and with them the vast host of martyrs; while outside the walls, with every vile and abominable thing, are those by whom they were persecuted, imprisoned, and slain. There is Nero, that monster of cruelty and vice, beholding the joy and exaltation of those whom he once tortured, and in whose extremest anguish he found satanic delight. His mother is there to witness the result of

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    her own work; to see how the evil stamp of character transmitted to her son, the passions encouraged and developed by her influence and example, have borne fruit in crimes that caused the world to shudder.

    There are papist priests and prelates, who claimed to be Christ's ambassadors, yet employed the rack, the dungeon, and the stake to control the consciences of His people. There are the proud pontiffs who exalted themselves above God and presumed to change the law of the Most High. Those pretended fathers of the church have an account to render to God from which they would fain be excused. Too late they are made to see that the Omniscient One is jealous of His law and that He will in no wise clear the guilty. They learn now that Christ identifies His interest with that of His suffering people; and they feel the force of His own words: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me." Matthew 25:40.

    The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them.

    It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. "All this," cries the lost soul, "I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair." All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: "We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us."

    As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and

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    transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life.

    Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, "son of the morning;" how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his.

    Memory recalls the home of his innocence and purity, the peace and content that were his until he indulged in murmuring against God, and envy of Christ. His accusations, his rebellion, his deceptions to gain the sympathy and support of the angels, his stubborn persistence in making no effort for self-recovery when God would have granted him forgiveness --all come vividly before him. He reviews his work among men and its results--the enmity of man toward his fellow man, the terrible destruction of life, the rise and fall of kingdoms, the overturning of thrones, the long succession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions. He recalls his constant efforts to oppose the work of Christ and to sink man lower and lower. He sees that his hellish plots have been powerless to destroy those who have put their trust in Jesus. As Satan looks upon his kingdom, the fruit of his toil, he sees only failure and ruin. He has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false. Again and again, in the progress of the great controversy, he has been defeated and compelled to yield. He knows too well the power and majesty of the Eternal.

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    The aim of the great rebel has ever been to justify himself and to prove the divine government responsible for the rebellion. To this end he has bent all the power of his giant intellect. He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy His people, and take possession of the City of God, the archdeceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. Christ's followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence.

    Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence.

    "Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest." Verse 4. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted

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    with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. "All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee." Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints."

    Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man's behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him--that He might bring many sons unto glory--that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12.

    Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King

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    of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

    Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19.

    "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething

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    lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8.

    The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

    Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6.

    While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.

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    "I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin.

    One reminder alone remains: Our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of His crucifixion. Upon His wounded head, upon His side, His hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought. Says the prophet, beholding Christ in His glory: "He had bright beams coming out of His side: and there was the hiding of His power." Habakkuk 3:4, margin. That pierced side whence flowed the crimson stream that reconciled man to God--there is the Saviour's glory, there "the hiding of His power." "Mighty to save," through the sacrifice of redemption, He was therefore strong to execute justice upon them that despised God's mercy. And the tokens of His humiliation are His highest honor; through the eternal ages the wounds of Calvary will show forth His praise and declare His power.

    "O Tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, unto Thee shall it come, even the first dominion." Micah 4:8. The time has come to which holy men have looked with longing since the flaming sword barred the first pair from Eden, the time for "the redemption of the purchased possession." Ephesians 1:14. The earth originally given to man as his kingdom, betrayed by him into the hands of Satan, and so long held by the mighty foe, has been brought back by the great plan of redemption. All that was lost by sin has been restored. "Thus saith the Lord . . . that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited." Isaiah 45:18. God's original purpose in the creation of the earth is fulfilled as it is made the eternal abode of the redeemed. "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever." Psalm 37:29.

    A fear of making the future inheritance seem too material

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    has led many to spiritualize away the very truths which lead us to look upon it as our home. Christ assured His disciples that He went to prepare mansions for them in the Father's house. Those who accept the teachings of God's word will not be wholly ignorant concerning the heavenly abode. And yet, "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9. Human language is inadequate to describe the reward of the righteous. It will be known only to those who behold it. No finite mind can comprehend the glory of the Paradise of God.

    In the Bible the inheritance of the saved is called "a country." Hebrews 11:14-16. There the heavenly Shepherd leads His flock to fountains of living waters. The tree of life yields its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations. There are ever-flowing streams, clear as crystal, and beside them waving trees cast their shadows upon the paths prepared for the ransomed of the Lord. There the wide-spreading plains swell into hills of beauty, and the mountains of God rear their lofty summits. On those peaceful plains, beside those living streams, God's people, so long pilgrims and wanderers, shall find a home.

    "My people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places." "Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise." "They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: . . . Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." Isaiah 32:18; 60:18; 65:21, 22.

    There, "the wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." "Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree." "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall

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    lie down with the kid; . . . and a little child shall lead them." "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," saith the Lord. Isaiah 35:1; 55:13; 11:6, 9.

    Pain cannot exist in the atmosphere of heaven. There will be no more tears, no funeral trains, no badges of mourning. "There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying: . . . for the former things are passed away." "The inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 33:24.

    There is the New Jerusalem, the metropolis of the glorified new earth, "a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God." "Her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal." "The nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it." Saith the Lord: "I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people." "The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." Isaiah 62:3; Revelation 21:11, 24; Isaiah 65:19; Revelation 21:3.

    In the City of God "there shall be no night." None will need or desire repose. There will be no weariness in doing the will of God and offering praise to His name. We shall ever feel the freshness of the morning and shall ever be far from its close. "And they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light." Revelation 22:5. The light of the sun will be superseded by a radiance which is not painfully dazzling, yet which immeasurably surpasses the brightness of our noontide. The glory of God and the Lamb floods the Holy City with unfading light. The redeemed walk in the sunless glory of perpetual day.

    "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Revelation 21:22. The people of God are privileged to hold open communion with the Father and the Son. "Now we see through a glass, darkly."

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    1 Corinthians 13:12. We behold the image of God reflected, as in a mirror, in the works of nature and in His dealings with men; but then we shall see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between. We shall stand in His presence and behold the glory of His countenance.

    There the redeemed shall know, even as also they are known. The loves and sympathies which God Himself has planted in the soul shall there find truest and sweetest exercise. The pure communion with holy beings, the harmonious social life with the blessed angels and with the faithful ones of all ages who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, the sacred ties that bind together "the whole family in heaven and earth" (Ephesians 3:15)--these help to constitute the happiness of the redeemed.

    There, immortal minds will contemplate with never-failing delight the wonders of creative power, the mysteries of redeeming love. There will be no cruel, deceiving foe to tempt to forgetfulness of God. Every faculty will be developed, every capacity increased. The acquirement of knowledge will not weary the mind or exhaust the energies. There the grandest enterprises may be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations reached, the highest ambitions realized; and still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of mind and soul and body.

    All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God's redeemed. Unfettered by mortality, they wing their tireless flight to worlds afar--worlds that thrilled with sorrow at the spectacle of human woe and rang with songs of gladness at the tidings of a ransomed soul. With unutterable delight the children of earth enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings. They share the treasures of knowledge and understanding gained through ages upon ages in contemplation of God's handiwork. With undimmed vision they gaze upon the glory of creation--suns and stars and systems, all in their appointed order circling the throne

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    of Deity. Upon all things, from the least to the greatest, the Creator's name is written, and in all are the riches of His power displayed.

    And the years of eternity, as they roll, will bring richer and still more glorious revelations of God and of Christ. As knowledge is progressive, so will love, reverence, and happiness increase. The more men learn of God, the greater will be their admiration of His character. As Jesus opens before them the riches of redemption and the amazing achievements in the great controversy with Satan, the hearts of the ransomed thrill with more fervent devotion, and with more rapturous joy they sweep the harps of gold; and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of voices unite to swell the mighty chorus of praise.

    "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13.

    The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love.

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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:45 am

    The following is a post by Antonia on AV1 which I thought should be included in this thread. Thank-you Antonia. I trust that I have not used your post in vain. I see a light at the end of the tunnel...but things can be pretty dark at times. Hang on tight...this is a tough read. They don't usually include these texts in the lectionary. How would you like to preach on the following texts? These references are enough to cause a lot of people to run out of the church...sobbing. This is some of the worst material in the Bible. We need to face reality. All of it. I continue to enjoy studying theology - but I think the real truth of the matter is rather obscure and esoteric - and this takes a lot of work and speculation. I think the agnostics may have had it right all along. We just have to keep searching - regardless of how difficult the journey becomes. Did Lucifer have anything to do with the madness documented below - or did Lucifer fight this sort of thing? I'm presently thinking that most all of the mythologies and theologies have a common origin - and that they reveal various aspects of a central small-case deity - and that this might be Satan and/or Lucifer. The large-case Creator God of the Universe seems to be strangely absent in all of this earthly madness. Think human, and think solar system for the gods, goddesses, angels, demons, aliens, souls, interdimensional reptilians, et al. Think Occam's Razor. As you lose your faith - create another one. Never give up. Never stop. Namaste.

    Ritual Human Sacrifice

    "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

    "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." Judges 11:29-40

    Rules of genocide...

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    Gods blood lust…Baby Killing

    "The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

    God kills the Good Samaritan

    "The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals." "When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God." (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

    Baby Bashing

    "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

    Child Beating

    "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

    "Chastise your son, for in this there is hope, but do not desire his death. The man of violent temper pays the penalty; even if you rescue him, you will have to do it again." (Proverbs 19:18-19 NAB)

    God tells his people to Kill Followers of Other Religions

    "If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    God demands Murder, Rape, and Pillage at Jabesh-gilead

    "So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

    "The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    "Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes." (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

    David's Punishment More rape, murder and baby killing demanded by God

    "Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (plural) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'"
    Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." (The child dies seven days later.) 2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB

    Slave Beating

    "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

    Sampson and the Spirit of the Lord

    "The spirit of the Lord came upon him (Sampson), and he went down to Ashkelon, where he killed thirty of their men and despoiled them; he gave their garments to those who had answered his riddle." (Sampson used the garments to pay off a bet he lost.) Judges 14:19 NAB

    Bloody Sabbath God demands death of man for gathering wood.

    "While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was discovered gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death as the Lord had commanded Moses." Numbers 15:32-36 NAB

    Murder, Rape, Pillage, and Plunder

    "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT

    Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites

    "They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho."

    "Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

    Burning of temple at Baal (There's nothing like a good church barbeque.)

    "Then Jehu called a meeting of all the people of the city and said to them, "Ahab hardly worshiped Baal at all compared to the way I will worship him! Summon all the prophets and worshipers of Baal, and call together all his priests. See to it that every one of them comes, for I am going to offer a great sacrifice to Baal. Any of Baal's worshipers who fail to come will be put to death." But Jehu's plan was to destroy all the worshipers of Baal. Then Jehu ordered, "Prepare a solemn assembly to worship Baal!" So they did. He sent messengers throughout all Israel summoning those who worshiped Baal. They all came and filled the temple of Baal from one end to the other. And Jehu instructed the keeper of the wardrobe, "Be sure that every worshiper of Baal wears one of these robes." So robes were given to them"

    "Then Jehu went into the temple of Baal with Jehonadab son of Recab. Jehu said to the worshipers of Baal, "Make sure that only those who worship Baal are here. Don't let anyone in who worships the LORD!" So they were all inside the temple to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had surrounded the building with eighty of his men and had warned them, "If you let anyone escape, you will pay for it with your own life."

    "As soon as Jehu had finished sacrificing the burnt offering, he commanded his guards and officers, "Go in and kill all of them. Don't let a single one escape!" So they killed them all with their swords, and the guards and officers dragged their bodies outside. Then Jehu's men went into the fortress of the temple of Baal. They dragged out the sacred pillar used in the worship of Baal and destroyed it. They broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and wrecked the temple of Baal, converting it into a public toilet. That is what it is used for to this day." 2 Kings 10:18-27 NLT

    Saul’s Kindness???

    Saul sent this message to the Kenites: "Move away from where the Amalekites live or else you will die with them. For you were kind to the people of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites packed up and left. Then Saul slaughtered the Amalekites from Havilah all the way to Shur, east of Egypt. (1 Samuel 15:6-7 NLT)

    Genocide

    During this period, Joshua destroyed all the descendants of Anak, who lived in the hill country of Hebron, Debir, Anab, and the entire hill country of Judah and Israel. He killed them all and completely destroyed their towns. Not one was left in all the land of Israel, though some still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. So Joshua took control of the entire land, just as the LORD had instructed Moses. He gave it to the people of Israel as their special possession, dividing the land among the tribes. So the land finally had rest from war. (Joshua 11:21-23 NLT)

    God hardens hearts and makes people fight the Israelites only to be slaughterd..

    So Joshua conquered the entire region – the hill country, the Negev, the land of Goshen, the western foothills, the Jordan Valley, and the mountains and lowlands of Israel. The Israelite territory now extended all the way from Mount Halak, which leads up to Seir, to Baal-gad at the foot of Mount Hermon in the valley of Lebanon. Joshua killed all the kings of those territories, waging war for a long time to accomplish this. No one in this region made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites of Gibeon. All the others were defeated. For the LORD hardened their hearts and caused them to fight the Israelites instead of asking for peace. So they were completely and mercilessly destroyed, as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Joshua 11:16-20 NLT)

    Whole Towns Murdered at the bequest of God

    The Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that the Israelites were approaching on the road to Atharim. So he attacked the Israelites and took some of them as prisoners. Then the people of Israel made this vow to the LORD: "If you will help us conquer these people, we will completely destroy all their towns." The LORD heard their request and gave them victory over the Canaanites. The Israelites completely destroyed them and their towns, and the place has been called Hormah ever since. (Numbers 21:1-3 NLT)

    God’s psychotic Wrath

    Weep and moan, you evil shepherds! Roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock! The time of your slaughter has arrived; you will fall and shatter like fragile pottery. You will find no place to hide; there will be no way to escape. Listen to the frantic cries of the shepherds, to the leaders of the flock shouting in despair, for the LORD is spoiling their pastures. Peaceful meadows will be turned into a wasteland by the LORD's fierce anger. He has left his den like a lion seeking its prey, and their land will be made desolate by the sword of the enemy and the LORD's fierce anger. (Jeremiah 25:34-38 NLT)

    God Slaughters countless people

    In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)

    The Cup of Anger God incites hate and anger

    Then the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, "Take from my hand this cup filled to the brim with my anger, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger, crazed by the warfare I will send against them." (Jeremiah 25:15-16 NLT)

    Complete Destruction

    And now the LORD Almighty says: Because you have not listened to me, I will gather together all the armies of the north under King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, whom I have appointed as my deputy. I will bring them all against this land and its people and against the other nations near you. I will completely destroy you and make you an object of horror and contempt and a ruin forever. I will take away your happy singing and laughter. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard. Your businesses will fail, and all your homes will stand silent and dark. This entire land will become a desolate wasteland. (Jeremiah 25:8-11 NLT
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:08 pm

    Has anyone taken a very, very close look at the architecture and art of churches, mosques, synagogues, and government buildings throughout the world? Are there commonalities? Look at the domes. Look at the gods and goddesses. What's going on here? I desire a unified and peaceful world which is genuinely responsibly free. A combined church and state wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't run by the same humans and non-humans who brought us the Crusades and the Inquisition. A minimalist humanist namaste constitutional responsible freedom theocracy might actually work. I just worry that highly disfunctional gods and goddesses would screw everything up - resulting in billions of corpses throughout the world. Would the Latin Mass, the Teachings of Jesus, and the U.S. Constitution be a good place to start? I'd like to know what the Pope and Jesuit General really think about in their most private moments regarding psychology, ethics, governance, science, technology, secrecy, history, spirituality, etc. It might be very, very different than what they present in public. I sometimes imagine their thoughts as they stand before the faithful. Might they be thinking 'if you people only knew what's really going on in this world!' Many people seem to be jumping out of the church frying pan, and into the new age fire. Look at the 'Infiltration of the New Age' thread in MOA. The information presented should be considered very carefully. Is there a Spiritual Switzerland somewhere between the Traditional Church and the New Age?
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Guest on Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:17 am

    I'm not going to keep commenting on my own threads to try to generate interest. The ball is in your court. There are some other threads I wish to follow - but I think I'm done with my threads for the foreseeable future. This does not imply a lack of interest or a change of heart. I just don't wish to play the part of the crusader. I might try to visit the United Nations, Washington D.C., the City of London, and the Vatican once again (I visited them many years ago). I will continue to fantasize about being a part of a Namaste Constitutional Responsible Freedom Solar System which includes the U.N., Washington D.C., the City of London, the Vatican, the Underground Bases, and the Secret Space Program - except that in my dreamworld there is no secrecy or corruption. Once again - I don't wish to fight the New World Order - I wish to HIJACK IT!! 'Take me to Nirvana!!' I'd love to put the dream into practice - but I'm not going to push it right now. If someone wants to pick me up in a UFO, and take me to the Darkside of the Moon to meet with Lucifer - I'll be ready to go at a moments notice. What am I saying?

    Are Satan, Lucifer, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Royal Family, and the Vatican the biggest seed-money rock stars on the planet - who are doing the most to make the world a better place? Trickle down theory voodoo economics? Where are the Billionaire Ghandi's? Jesus was pretty tough on rich people. Are billionaires the most socially responsible people on the planet? Did they gain their money through socially responsible activities? Can wealth become anticompetitive at some point? Should those with the most money have the greatest political clout? Should those with the gold - RULE? One of the greatest tragedies of history is the non compassionate use of accumulated wealth. I know that a lot of contactees and gurus are opposed to money - but I disagree. Money and private property are expressions of freedom. The problem with money is the irresponsible pursuit and use of money. Perhaps the billionaires should be placed under the scanning electron microscope to look for illegality and irresponsibility. Blood Money, Drug Money, and Destructive Money of All Kinds - should be repaid to society - with interest and penalties. I'm also not a big fan of ET Mentoring. Have the Gods, Goddesses, Angels, Archangels, ET's, and Ascended Masters been promoting Responsibility, Freedom, and Human Sovereignty (other than the Andromedans)? Boy - I sure got a lot out of my system - and I didn't even feel hostile. It must've been something I ate - or maybe the devil made me do it.

    Having said all of the above - I'm getting tired of being an internet warrior. It seems to be a monumental waste of time. Remember what Jesus said about pearls and such? Money Talks and BS Walks. The Bottom Line is the Bottom Line. Winning Isn't Everything. It's the Only Thing. Perhaps the secret is to be a Humanitarian on the Surface - and a Shrewd and Ruthless SOB Below the Radar. Could the Worship of Fame, Fortune, and Power - rather than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - help to explain why the Corrupt Rule the Stupid? Is Greed Good? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7upG01-XWbY

    I need to go for a long walk with my dog - and then perhaps I need to create a ten-year business plan. Who knows - in ten years I might have to change my tune and eat my words...

    OK...I'm back from my walk...and I decided that the Corrupt Will Always Rule the Stupid - because both the Corrupt and the Stupid are happy with the arrangement - despite all outward appearances. Additionally - Both the Corrupt and the Stupid are Threatened by Non-Corrupt Highly Intelligent People - and will Fight Them Vigorously. Think about THAT... Perhaps this is why no one has REALLY followed the Red Letter Teachings of Jesus for 2,000 years - and why they probably never will... Narrow is the way. Read Revelation 20:12. Is December 21, 2012 really Judgement Day?

    I'm on the verge of pusuing a business plan which is neither corrupt or stupid - and which will be executed in a manner which threatens neither the corrupt or the stupid. I may simply live a life of quiet decadence...and leave the corrupt and the stupid to their own devices. Actually - I'm too stupid to be corrupt - and that's the truth. I can't believe that I am able to put together semi-intelligent posts and threads. I am very discouraged at this point. I really feel like I'm not from around here. Nothing works. A Mason just invited me to a meeting. I'd love to talk to them - but I know that one thing would lead to another - and soon I would be in the middle of some very creepy stuff - and I'd find myself in a real jam. I worry about who really gives the top Masons their marching orders. Could it be Lucifer? Or is it Satan? How many Masons does it take to change a light-bulb? It's a secret.

    If the underground bases, the secret space program, and the secret government are in the best interest of the human race - then wonderful. But I have a very sinking and sick feeling that, in their present form, they are NOT in our best interest. I welcome grand plans for Humanity, Earth, and the Solar System - which are non-corrupt and are not evil. I don't have the answers to everything. I can't even run my own damn life, so how could I do anything of significance? 'You can't even run your own life - and I'll be damned if you'll run mine!' Perhaps trying to wake everyone up is a big mistake. Could this really be creating mass hysteria? I have mostly asked questions in contexts where people are already being exposed to all of the controversial, conspiratorial, and fringe stuff. I'm really trying to find compromises and a middle-ground which is still intellectually satisfying, and which is likely to stand the test of time. I don't hate the Masons, Nazis, and Magicians who Richard Hoagland says are at the heart of NASA. I don't hate the Catholics, the Muslims, the Blacks, or the Jews. The history of power in this solar system is probably stranger and sadder than even I can imagine. I just want to help resolve this damned mess. But I seem to be getting absolutely nowhere - and I'm getting older, dumber, and more miserable - each and every day. So - what's the point?

    Is just going with the flow - and not asking too many questions - really the way to go? Just get a degree? Make lots of money? Get a model spouse? Have charming children? And go along with the BS? If one really starts poking and prodding - do they end up on dozens of lists - get targeted by dozens of unsavory unseen entities - and end up losing their jobs, spouses, and minds? I was interested in the medical profession and the ministry - but I came to the conclusion that they were both as corrupt as hell - so I lost my way and got absolutely nowhere. I wanted things to make sense - and they never did. They still don't. And very few people will even talk to me. I wanted to help save the world - but is the world really worth saving? The people I meet every day make me question the prospects of making things truly work out well. The more people I meet - the more I like my dog. Oh I know that's not politically correct - but I'm not trying to impress anyone. I really want to stop posting. This isn't working. I hate the history of the world. I hate the direction of the world presently. I feel like Starbuck, laying on the floor, shouting 'we're going the wrong way!' I've tried. I've failed. And now I'm washing my hands of all of this. Good luck everyone.
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:40 am

    I washed my hands of all of this madness - but now my hands are dirtier than ever. I am presently taking a look at Tibet, Kali, and the Triinity Goddess. http://www.themistsofavalon.net/universal-lounge-f8/tibet-kali-and-the-trinity-goddess-t1019.htm Is this getting very close to the heart of Lucifer? In a sense - the names don't really matter. It's the power structure in this solar system - going back thousands or millions or years - that I'm really interested in. A central individual or group could write all kinds of texts, documents, and books - which are nothing more than cunningly devised fables - yet which could reveal volumes about the author. Could Lucifer be Lilith - Hathor - Isis - Ishtar - Mary - the Rich Young Ruler - the Prodigal Son - Mary of Magdala - the Whore of Babylon - or All of the Above? This could be one big shell-game or guessing-game. It could be a giant real-life game of Monopoly.

    Consider going through all of the Stargate SG-1 episodes on hulu.com - focusing on the theological and political issues which I have been raising lately. I'm just groping in the dark - but I think I may be covering some subjects in a manner in which few others are presently doing - which may shed light on the subject of disclosure. Are most of us looking in the wrong places - for the wrong reasons. What would Philip Corso, Jr. say? Speaking of which - his father - Philip Corso - spent a significant period of time in London and Rome - before Roswell. Perhaps someone should write a book titled 'The Day Before Roswell'. Was Roswell a staged event - using Secret Government UFO's and PGLF's or Hybrids? Was Muroc 1954 the same damn thing? What would Bishop McIntyre say? What would Bill Cooper say - if he were alive today? Could Bill still be alive today? What would Commander X say? Nuff said...
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:45 am

    If one was in a perfect Garden of Eden or a Harmonious Heaven - with a Kind and Loving God in charge - what more could one want? But what if one wished to exercise their creativity, curiosity, and ambition - in forbidden ways? Something has been bothering me a lot for a long time. It has to do with why we seem to be killing ourselves with industrialization, high-technology surveillance and warfare, designer diseases, massive pollution, bitter science vs religion battles, acute-care drugs and surgery medicine instead of prevention, and running around like chickens with our heads cut off instead of smelling the roses and savoring the creation. There's a lot more to it than what I just said - and I will try to elaborate on this in subsequent posts. I'm really trying to get at why Lucifer rebelled against God (assuming that this actually did occur in some way, shape, or form). I seem to be enamored with Lucifer - to an unhealthy degree. My speculations are causing me a significant amount of mental anguish - but I'm beginning to think that a Lucifer-Centered Search for Truth - might yield the clearest view of the way things really are. I have no particular animosity toward Lucifer (assuming that Lucifer actually exists) - and I simply want to try to figure things out - and eventually try to find some peace of mind. I have very little presently - and I feel a bit like Elvis Presley - who wished for a single day of peace. Sometimes I wonder if I might even be Lucifer with amnesia - or a potential Lucifer of the future. Thinking about Lucifer related subjects and issues is scaring the hell out of me. I love it in one way - but I seem to keep sliding down the slippery slope - into I know not what. The horror.

    If you can - get DVD's of 'Contact' and 'Avatar' - and watch them several times - noting especially the philosophical and theological aspects. Also - Google 'The Lucifer Effect - MIT Lecture'. http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/459 This is just a start. I continue to think that unconventional and heretical theological pursuits will provide many solutions - possibly even disclosure. I continue to contemplate a harmonization of the Teachings of Jesus, the U.S. Constitution, and the Latin Mass. This may be a dead-end, and we may need to move way beyond such a historical approach, but I think there is merit in exploring this possibility - as a mental and spiritual exercise - if nothing else. I'm just rambling now. I'm concerned that society may be on the verge of getting a lot meaner and nastier. If half of what I have speculated about is true - this could cause a lot of societal problems - some of them possibly violent. Waking people up could backfire - if we're not very careful. Are we creating mass-hysteria? Should maybe 10% of the key people of the world be properly woken-up? I think I might be trying to do this in my various postings and threads. I wonder who really reads them? I do not wish to yell 'FIRE!!!' in a crowded theater. I continue to seek a top-down non-revolution - to make the world and solar system a better place. I'm too lazy, stupid, and squeamish to run in the streets with torches and pitchforks. I much prefer armchair blogging. Born to blog. The incredible blog.

    Has technology and industrialization made us better and happier people? Have any wars in the history of the universe really done anyone any real good? Why do we compete with each other? What if we stopped competing with each other? Would we have a greater or lesser chance of survival? Would the breed improve if we ceased to compete? Was it John D. Rockefeller who said 'Competition is a sin'? Why do we need jets, trains, busses, nukes, cities, cathedrals, mansions, space-travel, etc, etc? Why can't we live in teepees or grass huts? We seem to be killing ourselves in very sophisticated and clever ways. If we destroy ourselves - then what? What do you think, Lucifer?

    Try thinking about galactic issues in the context of the art, architecture, ceremony, symbology, history, and music of the Roman Catholic Church. All roads lead to Rome - but where did the most important roads begin? Sometimes I wish that I could travel through Tibet, China, India, Iraq (Babylon), Egypt, the Holy Land, Greece, Rome (and all of Europe) - with a good Jesuit 'deep-throat' (a good Jesuit is hard to find!) - who would lead me through the strange and brutal history of the world, solar system, galaxy, and universe. But then I would know too much - and we all know what that would mean! I think I may re-read 'Murder in the Vatican' by Lucien Gregoire. I have 'Keys of This Blood' by Malachi Martin somewhere - but I can't find it. I may even re-watch 'The Brides of Christ'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQgHCQh2sJE&feature=related Frankly - I got tired of Catholic-bashing (listening to it, that is) - and I moved on. But now I'm taking a second look - from what I hope is an objective perspective - noting both the good and the bad - and then imagining what an ideal church would look like and act like. A female pope? No more requirement of a celebate and male priesthood? No more crowns and crucifixes? An Ecumenical Namaste Latin 'Mass' based upon the Sermon on the Mount - sung alternatum - without communion - and with a native-tongue homily in the middle (expository preaching of the Teachings of Jesus)? No more Cannon Law or Holy Office? A church completely in harmony with the Teachings of Jesus and the U.S. Constitution? A retired Mary? I'd better start running...but I fear that there is no place to hide. The church can be a real mother........
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  orthodoxymoron on Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:31 pm

    spiritwarrior wrote:hi Onlineorthodoxymoron ,

    a lot of info and reading here, working my way though it.

    great food for thought. thanks

    "I have a sinking feeling that my internet posting is a losing battle. Most people don't want to slog through the BS with me in search of the good stuff."-not so my friend, if nothing it's in itself a great healing in the writing and the sharing even more so.



    love and blessings
    spiritwarrior cheers Toast Double Thumbs Up

    This post has given me something to think about. Is the picture representative of the Whore of Babylon (Woman in Scarlet)? Is she representative of Lucifer? What is the 'Thank-You!' in reference to? What is the toast at the bottom for? Is the pretty lady a Rosicrucian (Rose Cross)? I wonder if she'd marry me? Hmmmmmm.


    Last edited by Carol on Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : opps)
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    Re: Who is Lucifer? What are they doing?

    Post  Carol on Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:52 pm

    I accidently put this post in your post, hence the reason for the edit script opps.

    Now onto the response.

    Goodness, Oxy you are on a symbolic roll aren't you, yet your theme seems to view women as evil or potential evil. What is that all about? Stop and think for a moment... what interests one has are the glasses they look at the world through.

    She could just be a pretty lady and the artist liked the color red. And if you find her and ask for her hand if she is free... I hope she says yes. cheers


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    With deepest respect ~ Aloha & Mahalo, Carol

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