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    “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:45 am

    You all got me thinking of perception at the moment.

    Perception itself is itself mind blowing. When you look perception straight in the eye it's perception staring right back. Talk about mirrors, strange magic indeed!




    Oh, I'm never gonna be the same again,
    now I've seen the way it's got to end,
    sweet dream, sweet dream.


    One could never be sure one ever left perception because it would take perception to tell one that they're gone. Catch-22.

    Perhaps a form of meditation could get one 'there' but how would one know how successful the meditation was because that would take perception to tell. I suppose one way could be a clock. A person could gauge success by how long they are gone or how they feel from the experience but that too takes perception. And how could the clock be trusted because anyone who has meditated deeply knows perception/ reality can't be trusted.

    The thought arises, what good is it to discover any door of perception because behind any of them would be other doors of perception? It's a valid argument. Sometimes it feels like it's a calling like people describing a call to priesthood or any other occupation.......the common thread through it all is perception.

    Dang, is there any rabbit hole too deep that Alice won't go? I think not, we are 'here' aren't we?  (with a Cheshire Cat grin)



    Maybe the premise 'be the flame, not the moth' is a false premise. Perhaps we are the flame, the moth and neither.... as perception.

    Don't take any of this as expert knowledge.... I am just an inner world explorer and putting it in my 'captain's log' for anyone to read it. I too enjoy reading other people's 'captain's log' that cares to share.



    There is this gnawing sense that there is something beyond/ greater than perception but damn if that isn't a perception to.

    How is my perception soup, hope it wasn't to bland for you.  Wink


    Last edited by JoeEcho on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : pronoun repair)

    Pris

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:28 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    Oh, I'm never gonna be the same again,
    now I've seen the way it's got to end,
    sweet dream, sweet dream.


















    JoeEcho wrote:I am just an inner world explorer and putting it in my 'captain's log'...








    JoeEcho wrote:There is this gnawing sense that there is something beyond/ greater than perception but damn if that isn't a perception to.


    Something...

    ..................................still doesn't feel right...


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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:00 am

    Pris wrote:
    mudra wrote:Perception - The reality beyond matter

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnEGu8VF8Y


    [size=16]From the video:

    Everything we see as an external world is only an image formed inside our brain...
    So how can we be sure such an 'external' world exists?  We cannot.


    /quote]

    :) and it goes beyond this in that video. Eventually the brain itself is also an extra picture in the mind.
    Hence when every mental picture that makes us see this world has been stripped away what's left ? When the interface is gone ... Who is the observer ?

    Love from me
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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:01 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    There is this gnawing sense that there is something beyond/ greater than perception but damn if that isn't a perception to.

    How is my perception soup, hope it wasn't to bland for you.  Wink[/size]

    Simplify

    BE- DO- HAVE

    Remove DO ( perception ) and Have ( that which is perceived ) and BE ( I AM ) remains JoeEcho.

    For info have you ever read L Ron Hubbard's Factors ?
    The summation of the considerations and examinations of the human spirit and the material universe completed between 1923 and 1953 a.d

    http://www.scientologyreligion.org/background-and-beliefs/the-factors.html

    Love from me
    mudra



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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:08 pm

    mudra wrote:
    JoeEcho wrote:
    There is this gnawing sense that there is something beyond/ greater than perception but damn if that isn't a perception to.

    How is my perception soup, hope it wasn't to bland for you.  Wink[/size]

    Simplify

    BE- DO- HAVE

    Remove DO ( perception ) and Have ( that which is perceived ) and BE ( I AM ) remains JoeEcho.

    For info have you ever read L Ron Hubbard's Factors ?
    The summation of the considerations and examinations of the human spirit and the material universe completed between 1923 and 1953 a.d

    http://www.scientologyreligion.org/background-and-beliefs/the-factors.html

    Love from me
    mudra


    Thanks for your post mudra, I always seek reviewing other facets of spirituality. One thing I find fascinating regarding your post is the reference to L Ron Hubbard. I tend to ignore anything related to L Ron Hubbard/ Scientology and put it in a side pocket mainly due to my public perception of such. But what I've also discovered in my spiritual travels is to never write anything off entirely. There have been times I have put things in that side pocket only to discover later that I did not always vet it thoroughly enough to deserve a permanent spot there. I have also discovered that it makes life that much more interesting when nothing gets put there permanently.

    Perception is both a hindrance to and liberation from. A natural question that arises is: 'to' what? and 'from' what? I am not entirely sure those two questions (which are really one) has a true answer but I am open suggestions. I tend to think any answer to the question could potentially be misleading.

    Perception is the purple pill (red and blue) and also why perception is never Absolute. Perception is like wearing virtual reality head gear from birth having never truly seen Reality. I could see, in this analogy, that the one wearing the the VR headgear is the Absolute. But wouldn't that still be something one derived from wearing the headgear since birth? Wasn't 'William Shakespeare' wearing headgear when he wrote 'to be or not to be'?

    It has been suggested that I overthink and that that is a hindrance (which is fair) but never in the same suggestion has it been suggested that it is also my liberation. Curious observation, no? Hmmmm, maybe 'I am' the one wearing the headgear?

    Having said all that and more in my prior posts, I am always open to guidance from those that have been where I am at now but moved on....

    Maybe perception is nothing more then innocent kids suggesting to each other "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Well?........................
     Flowers


    Pris

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:51 pm


    JoeEcho wrote:It has been suggested that I overthink and that that is a hindrance (which is fair) but never in the same suggestion has it been suggested that it is also my liberation. Curious observation, no? Hmmmm, maybe 'I am' the one wearing the headgear?

    Maybe perception is nothing more then innocent kids suggesting to each other "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Well?........................
     Flowers



    Well, then. Very Happy   May I be the first to suggest that I think your 'overthinking' has empowered you, Joe.  I think my own so-called 'overthinking' has empowered me, too.  So, there.

    Hahaha so that's what it all boils down to?  All of us kids showing each other our... privates?  lol! Oooyeah 1 Double Thumbs Up Insanely Happy

    And, yes, I really DO think that admiration is best of all. Toast

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    Last edited by Pris on Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total

    Pris

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:12 pm

    ...


    Last edited by Pris on Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:23 pm

    Wasn't that the result of sinning in the garden of Eden, they hid their privates from each other? Maybe having the superpower of x-ray vision is a form of enlightenment.



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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:36 am

    JoeEcho wrote:

    [size=16]One thing I find fascinating regarding your post is the reference to L Ron Hubbard. I tend to ignore anything related to L Ron Hubbard/ Scientology and put it in a side pocket mainly due to my public perception of such.

    No mystery here I travelled LRH's bridge from A to B for a few years.
    Would you ask me " Was it worth it for you ? " I would nod.
    Would you ask me " If you could go back in time would you choose likewise ? " I would nod

    At some point I decided to leave Hubbard's Church.

    Would you ask me " Was it worth it for you ? " I would nod.
    Would you ask me " If you could go back in time would you choose likewise ? " I would nod.

    JoeEcho wrote: But what I've also discovered in my spiritual travels is to never write anything off entirely. There have been times I have put things in that side pocket only to discover later that I did not always vet it thoroughly enough to deserve a permanent spot there. I have also discovered that it makes life that much more interesting when nothing gets put there permanently.

    Wise of you JoeEcho :)

    I noticed that when I allow things to reach me in a synchronistic way my attention follows.
    What is really important to one usually knocks at the door.
    And when no longer important fades away.

    JoeEcho wrote:Perception is both a hindrance to and liberation from. A natural question that arises is: 'to' what? and 'from' what? I am not entirely sure those two questions (which are really one) has a true answer but I am open suggestions. I tend to think any answer to the question could potentially be misleading.

    Our way to play hide and seek with Cause.

    JoeEcho wrote:It has been suggested that I overthink and that that is a hindrance (which is fair) but never in the same suggestion has it been suggested that it is also my liberation.

    I like the idea of thoughts being used either as keys or locks or both of them.
    A good balance of them is probably what works best.
    It's a game of it's own  Cheerful

    Love from me
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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:50 am

    Pris wrote:
    I like to think of myself as a 'little' shining black-'whole' dot 'looking out/in'... observing and observed... (with a particular affinity towards kittehs). Very Happy

    (Btw, I can see why that version of the video you shared cuts off the ending, because in the full version, it suddenly switches gears and goes all religious.  Like they say, you have to sift through -- pick and choose -- to find the treasure.)[/size]
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    Yes Pris I SEE YOU Huge Grin

    It suddenly switches gears hey .. humm at times what is simple , the true gem is going by undercover I guess LOL

    Love from me
    mudra



    Pris

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:59 am

    ...


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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:43 am

    mudra wrote:

    I like the idea of thoughts being used either as keys or locks or both of them.
    A good balance of them is probably what works best.
    It's a game of it's own  Cheerful

    Love from me
    mudra

    Excellent! I am going to take the key / locks and run with it.

    Perception/ 'reality' is like a mansion of untold size filled full of locks and keys that one needs not enter for any reason, personal or otherwise but does it anyways. With all things being equal, perception is the ultimate rebel. It's like if prisoners had no thought/ perception of escaping, there would be no escapes. Perception is a sly old fox because it perceives something ELSE as the sly old fox thus falsely elevating it's status. Weird talking about perception while perceiving.

    Perception changes which makes it appear that essential nature eventually changes as well, that too is perception for yeh.


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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:04 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    Perception changes which makes it appear that essential nature eventually changes as well, that too is perception for yeh.[/size]


    Isn't it truly amazing that we perceive any thing when essential nature is no thing.

    Alan Watts discusses Nothing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssf7P-Sgcrk


    You're It- Alan Watts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcPWU59Luoc


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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:38 pm

    mudra wrote:
    Isn't it truly amazing that we perceive any thing when essential nature is no thing.

    That's the mystery of mysteries, isn't it? Why there is anything at all. Why is there a fly in the ointment? Even if that fly is imaginary. Why is there even a why? One can come up with all kinds of theories why but they all end up in the same place, in a pile of whys. A million whys, a million lies.

    Perception, the greatest seeker and hiding place.

    Hidden in plain sight. How perfect is that?

    To see me is to not.

    See?


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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:00 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    mudra wrote:
    Isn't it truly amazing that we perceive any thing when essential nature is no thing.

    That's the mystery of mysteries, isn't it? Why there is anything at all. Why is there a fly in the ointment? Even if that fly is imaginary. Why is there even a why? One can come up with all kinds of theories why but they all end up in the same place, in a pile of whys. A million whys, a million lies.

    Perception, the greatest seeker and hiding place.

    Hidden in plain sight. How perfect is that?

    To see me is to not.

    See?



    I see what is not to be seen in you JoeEcho .
    Don't ask me WHY Question Lmfao

    The art of Perceiving in itself  is a key .
    What we think we perceive is the locker.
    Words shape,mold and fix reality.
    The art of perception is like running water.
    It pervades all and embraces everything.
    It gives Creation space and a place to dance.
    And a chance for the Love that we are to manifest miracles.



    There were doors all round the hall, but they were all locked; and when Alice had been all the way down one side and up the other, trying every door, she walked sadly down the middle, wondering how she was ever to get out again.

    Suddenly she came upon a little three-legged table, all made of solid glass: there was nothing on it but a tiny golden key, and Alice's first idea was that this might belong to one of the doors of the hall; but, alas! either the locks were too large, or the key was too small, but at any rate it would not open any of them. However, on the second time round, she came upon a low curtain she had not noticed before, and behind it was a little door about fifteen inches high: she tried the little golden key in the lock, and to her great delight it fitted!

    http://sabian.org/alice_in_wonderland1.php

    Love from me
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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:57 pm

    ...


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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:31 pm

    mudra wrote:

    I see what is not to be seen in you JoeEcho .
    Don't ask me WHY  Question  Lmfao

    To be seen is to be misunderstood. My bad. Who (k)new?  Adv2

    Imagination, the camera. Dreams, its capture.



    Def Leppard wrote:
    Photograph - I don't want your
    Photograph - I don't need your
    Photograph - All I've got is a photograph
    But it's not enough
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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:40 pm

    Pris wrote:
    All they seem to do is eat, sunbathe, and play. Cheerful  Oh, how I love rodents. Hadriel

    Do you? Let's test that theory, shall we?  cat

    Knock. Knock.



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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  Pris on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:11 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    Pris wrote:
    All they seem to do is eat, sunbathe, and play. Cheerful  Oh, how I love rodents. Hadriel

    Do you? Let's test that theory, shall we?  cat

    Knock. Knock.




    LOL church mice...  trust you to touch my wee tender spot harharhar. Bleh  Actually, I took out the word 'eat' afterwards (insomuchas referring to ourselves/myself).  So, no Cheesus for me, thanks! lol!
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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:18 am

    Pris wrote:.
    .

    [size=16]Some thoughts while reading all the above...


    It may well all be nothing, but we sure love to stuff it with something.


    Indeed ...
    To see or not to see ? Blink

    The least that I experienced seeing was complete darkness.
    The entire universe had just vanished. No sense of warm, cold, color,weight,smell, gravity ..
    And yet that utter blackness was still something to see that I enjoyed being aware of.
    I was creating empty space.

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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:27 am

    JoeEcho wrote:
    mudra wrote:

    I see what is not to be seen in you JoeEcho .
    Don't ask me WHY  Question  Lmfao

    To be seen is to be misunderstood. My bad. Who (k)new?  Adv2


    Not your bad JoeEcho. Just my lousy sense of humor.

    Hugs

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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:14 pm

    mudra wrote:

    Not your bad JoeEcho. Just my lousy sense of humor.

    Hugs

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    mudra

    In no way was my post in responds to yours, Mudra. I appreciated your post with a chuckle or three. If things had been reversed I probably would have said something along your lines as well. That post I made was just expounding on my prior post in suggesting appearances are misleading.

    Without humor, love, and humorous love, I believe I'd find the rest of 'it' to be a LOT less tolerable.

    Although not perfect, my humor is quite diverse. Speaking of locks and keys, well placed humor unlocks many a complicated lock as it works it's magic.

    I often wonder if people that are serious all the time do so because they are worried they will not be taken seriously when they want people to take them seriously. I do not need people to take me seriously. I do, however, like to encourage people to explore ideas/ beliefs even if they or others have explored and well documented them before. The smallest thing discovered can end up being the biggest. One simply wouldn't know until they tried. And if the journey didn't appear to pan out? The journey, itself, is its own discovery.

    The proverb curiosity killed the cat, says the cat perished but what it doesn't explicitly say is how. I choose to think it was with laughter. What a great way to go.......



    (The above is funny even if I am not.... but we all know I am....hahaha.....the best echoes are of laughter cat )



    There are things I find funny or amusing that I never did before, is that due to ignorance or enlightenment? I say it's in-light-meant. Wink
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    mudra

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:25 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:

    [size=16]In no way was my post in responds to yours, Mudra

    Oh good   cheers I wasn't sure I was answering yours either JoeEcho cheers


    JoeEcho wrote: That post I made was just expounding on my prior post in suggesting appearances are misleading

    Have you ever wondered what an appearance that isn't misleading looks like ?

    JoeEcho wrote: Although not perfect, my humor is quite diverse. Speaking of locks and keys, well placed humor unlocks many a complicated lock as it works it's magic.  

    Well placed humor ... that moment when you release yourself from the burden of pretending the story is the way it is and see it as is.

    Laughing Buddhas

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAFLhSWdsA


    LOL

    I could'nt help adding an extra one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfvgvDkdG2M&list=PLwSmzDNYNrKJaBAoFlEgujQuWOIEjFh93


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    JoeEcho

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  JoeEcho on Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:53 pm

    mudra wrote:
    JoeEcho wrote: That post I made was just expounding on my prior post in suggesting appearances are misleading

    Have you ever wondered what an appearance that isn't misleading looks like ?

    Love from me
    mudra

    I have, I have. I would think anyone that has plumb the depth would have. That is why the quote....

    You’ve got what it takes, but it will take everything you’ve got.

    ...is a good guidepost as far as guideposts go. It's not just everything I've got that it takes for when the quote refers to everything it really means EVERYTHING! There are no half measures, no cherry picking even while the mind would like to THINK otherwise.

    The mind, the 'I', seems bound and determined to find a loophole or bargaining chip. The problem is in that the loophole and bargaining chips only have relative worth within the game. If proof of this is desired, try buying a loaf of bread with monopoly money. I could be monetarily rich beyond measure and still unable to buy what really matters.



    (though not a possession so the 'have' is misleading)

    Consciousness, the first acquisition?

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    Re: “Be the flame, not the moth,” advised Casanova

    Post  mudra on Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:36 pm

    JoeEcho wrote:
    mudra wrote:
    JoeEcho wrote: That post I made was just expounding on my prior post in suggesting appearances are misleading

    Have you ever wondered what an appearance that isn't misleading looks like ?

    Love from me
    mudra

    I have, I have. I would think anyone that has plumb the depth would have. That is why the quote....

    You’ve got what it takes, but it will take everything you’ve got.


    Quite a riddle that could easily lead one into a brainstorm and running into circles
    therein until a shift in consideration suddenly blows the doors wide open.

    The above guide post when taken apart brings this back to awareness.
    Hubbard had a rather pragmatic way of discussing creation, persistence and destruction.

    Scientology Axiom 11

    The considerations resulting in conditions of existence are fourfold:

    a. AS-ISNESS is the condition of immediate creation without persistence, and is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation and the moment of destruction, and is different from other considerations in that it does not contain survival.

    b. ALTER-ISNESS is the consideration which introduces change, and therefore time and persistence, into an AS-ISNESS to obtain persistency.

    c. ISNESS is an apparency of existence brought about by the continuous alteration of an AS-ISNESS. This is called, when agreed upon, reality.

    d. NOT-ISNESS is the effort to handle ISNESS by reducing its condition through the use of force. It is an apparency and cannot entirely vanquish an ISNESS.


    Love from me
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